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Vesayen
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Most of you know my religious backround and upbrining.
I've always had tremendous doubt of God, and well my first year of college I've stopped tons of practices.
I never liked going to synagouge and I never found ANY meaning in it, I speak bad hebrew and know all the prayers(most in english and hebrew). In retrospect the only reason I ever went to synagouge was social pressure/stigma/pressure from familly.
Shortly after coming to college I have stopped going all together, I didnt go at all on any of the yom tovim(high holidays) except for about 2 and a half hours on Yom Kipur-though I fasted that day.
The kosher kitchen on campus is horrible, the food is exspensive, small quantities, tastes like crap and has no variety, same food all the time....
I started skipping meals, but that isnt an option, I have to eat, so I started eating regular food from the regular kitchen. I've always been 100% tremendously strict on the kosher laws, but now I've dropped much of that.... I dont eat anything with meat in it, but pizza, eggs etc.....
I look back in the past and I silently judged those who werent as observant as me, not even realizing my observance was an issue of circumstance and convenience, and not really my own choice-not really.
I still pray, infact I always have often, but silently to myself.
I still live what I like to think is a very moral life, I have a very strong sense of morality as far as propety goes, I dont "borrow" things or think its okay if I take blank "because they have so much". I like to think I am kinder then most it comes to interacting with other people, I dont gossip and I never put people down-even those I dont like.
So if God is up there, does he hate me for ignoring his commandments?
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Vesayen
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The thing is I am not at all sorry I am not doing them, I see them as well, pointless.
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Starchild
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a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:31
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Does an all-powerful being who created, well, everything, seem like the micro-manager type to you? G-d, Christ, Allah, the Committee of Amun-Ra (Universe Creating Division), whoever stress the big stuff. Be a good person. Help others. Love. Pray, when necessary. Not doing the small things is like not washing your hands when your mum tells you to. Doesn't mean she loves you any less or that she loves the sibling that does anymore. You're a free agent growing as a person in a world that's not perfect. So while God may want you to eat kosher foods, he's probably willing to let that slide as long as you grow up to be a good, kind person.
Then again, I'm an atheist. So take what I say with a metaphysical grain of salt.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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interesting, when i was in my first year in college i became more observant - but then i was raised in a non observant Reform home.
First year of college is a time when people have left their parents home, and are wrestling with how they want to live. For Jews, it is often a time of wrestling with observing and belief
Does G-d hate you - I dont know, but I dont think so. You arent just indulging yourself, it sounds like. You are WRESTLING with what you beleive and how you want to live. Israel MEANS "one who stuggles with G-d" G-d might hate your apathy(if that were the case) , but I dont think he can hate your struggle.
RI recall Dennis Prager some time ago discussing what it meant to be a "serious" jew. WRT Kashrut, he didnt specify any particular level of observance - rather he said that you had to think SERIOUSLY about, and think about WHY you were observing or not.
BTW im not sure about your background - were you raised Orthodox? Conservative?
As you may have noted, I have my doubts and issues with G-d - I would say theyre particularly Jewish issues, and I find a Jewish environment the best place to work them out. Too bad that many Jewish environments arent sophisticated enough to be places to work them out.
Dont feel guilty. But dont give up on Judaism, in the broadest sense, either.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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"I dont gossip and I never put people down-even those I dont like."
You dont commit Lashon hara - very good - thats one of the most important mitzvot, and one that many of the most "pious" people regularly fail at.
"Who is the man who desires life...? Guard your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit,"
Last edited by lord of the mark on 31-10-2003 at 23:25
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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 31-10-2003 23:34
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#19
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Re: Does God hate me because I've been ignoring his commandments?
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Support Apolyton
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quote:
Originally posted by Vesayen
Most of you know my religious backround and upbrining.
I've always had tremendous doubt of God, and well my first year of college I've stopped tons of practices.
I never liked going to synagouge and I never found ANY meaning in it, I speak bad hebrew and know all the prayers(most in english and hebrew). In retrospect the only reason I ever went to synagouge was social pressure/stigma/pressure from familly.
Shortly after coming to college I have stopped going all together, I didnt go at all on any of the yom tovim(high holidays) except for about 2 and a half hours on Yom Kipur-though I fasted that day.
The kosher kitchen on campus is horrible, the food is exspensive, small quantities, tastes like crap and has no variety, same food all the time....
I started skipping meals, but that isnt an option, I have to eat, so I started eating regular food from the regular kitchen. I've always been 100% tremendously strict on the kosher laws, but now I've dropped much of that.... I dont eat anything with meat in it, but pizza, eggs etc.....
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Well you observe kashrut more strictly than probably about 75% of the people in my shul.
Meaningfulness of prayer - my rabbi gave a great sermon on Yom Kippur, one aspect of which mentioned how hard it is to get these largely medieval prayers to make sense for us - he stated that its a problem for him to - you can change them to more explicitly express your doubts as Recon and some Reform Jews do, or you can "work with it" He also was winking at the large number of his congregants who wander in and out of the sanctuary, come in for the sermons and the high points, etc. He saw them not as bad, but as wrestling in their own way. (IF i can find copy of his sermon i'll try to post it - i dont think hes ever put his YK sermons on the shul website - i think hes saving them for a book)
But basically youre not alone in doubts, issues and wrestling - for me thats what Judaism is about. If i could put aside all doubts i could be orthodox i suppose. If i could just decide to be happily agnostic, and leave aside these issues, i could dispense with judaism i suppose (though i think i would continue to be a Zionist) But I can do neither, and need a place to wrestle with these issues.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
Both. Why the distinction, anyway? |
You asked for it you got it.
Here are SOME POSSIBLE reasons: (not exhaustive)
"The first and most obvious idea behind the kosher laws is self-control and discipline. Let me illustrate this idea with a real-life example. Most parents are familiar with the horrors of going to the supermarket with young children. The worst part of this ordeal is waiting in line at the check-out counter. You have only five items (including two items that the child in the shopping cart swiped off the shelves without your knowledge), so you wait in the "eight-items or less" express line. The lady in front of you has 25 items at least, she is trying to pay with a third-party cheque from Paraguay in Thai baht, and is negotiating with the clerk over her expired coupons (and her mortgage). You are waiting with two children under the age of six, surrounded on both sides by four foot high canyon walls of sugar based products. The children are becoming increasingly impatient and begging for candies, and you are becoming more and more angry and frustrated as time goes on. Of course, most children will scream and beg and embarrass their parents into buying the candy (For those who are not parents, be assured that this is standard practice). Now for the true story. I moved with my family from Israel to Toronto for a four year stay, and in the first week was waiting in line at the supermarket (as described above, more or less) with one of my children. He asked me for a chocolate bar, I looked at the bar and told him that it was not kosher (really, it wasn't kosher) and he was silent, accepting the decision without tantrums, threats, tears or hysteria. It struck me then, that my five year old, who has been brought up with the laws of kashrut, had more self-control than the millions of adults in the Western world. How many people accept "no" as an answer in denial of a pleasure that they want NOW? Dangerous? I will take precautions Unhealthy? I will stop after a few. Addictive? Not to me. Not to indulge is simply not an option. So one clear benefit of the laws of kashrut is self-control and discipline.
I remember seeing an interview with a famous politician whose motto was "a kinder, gentler America." The interview was conducted while he was engaged in hunting grouse on his estate. No one seemed to notice the contradiction between his recreational activity and his motto. How can one derive entertainment from pursuing and killing an animal and at the same time espouse a "kinder, gentler America?" In the words of one of our great Rabbis (Rabbi Yechezkel Landau, Responsa Nodah Biyehudah, Yoreh Deah 10)" I am amazed by this activity [hunting], we have not found hunters in the Torah except for Nimrod and Esau. This is not the way of the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ... one should not say "wear it out and renew out" to someone who has bought clothing made of animal skin, since it is written "His mercy is upon all his creatures."...if so how can an Israelite kill living beings, without any other need than in order to pass his time by hunting?!... Therefore this matter contributes to a negative trait cruelty, and is forbidden and dangerous, and also causes Gd to judge the person for his sins..." It is true that in Jewish tradition we are allowed to use animals as food and clothing, however we are not supposed to rejoice in this, and we are certainly not supposed to make a sport of it. I believe that some of laws of kashrut are designed to prevent us from becoming callous and cruel and to discourage hunting as a form of recreation or sustenance. For instance, the requirements of shechita and treifot (see above 1b) virtually preclude the possibility of hunting an animal and then eating it. It must be still and under control when killed, it cannot be fatally injured, and it must be killed only by an expert.
The prohibition against meat and milk also serves to remind us where our food comes from. The meat is from a dead animal, the milk from a living animal. "Do not cook a kid in its mother's milk" - be aware that obtaining meat necessitates death, obtaining milk requires life. These are foods that have their origin in living creatures and keeping them separate makes us aware of their source. This is similar to the law that allows us to wear clothing of leather, but suggests that we do not wish our friend to "wear it out", because getting a new one involves the death of an animal. (Code of Jewish Law, Orach Chaim, 223:6 Ramah ad loc.)
In Hebrew the word for "charity" is "tzedaka", which is more correctly translated as "justice." We do not look at giving to the less fortunate as something beyond the call of duty, we perceive it as simple justice. Hence we can understand why the Torah prohibits a Jewish farmer from eating the produce of his own field until he has given tithes to those without land of their own. He is not being asked to be extra nice, he is being commanded to be just.
Even the types of animals we eat are chosen in part for their symbolism. The ruminants that have split hooves tend to be tranquil, domesticated animals that have no natural weapons. These are animals whose characteristics we may absorb through eating. We may not eat scavengers, carnivores or birds of prey -- these are not characteristics that we want to absorb at all.
There is no question that kashrut has contributed to our survival as a distinct nation as well. Jews all over the world have certain common dietary patterns. I can be confident that the curried hamin of the Jews of Calcutta has no mixture of milk and meat in its ingredients. When I eat French-Moroccan cuisine I know that the meat is not pork, the animals have been slaughtered according to law and the wine is produced by Jews. Jews meet each other at the local kosher bakery, they shop at the same stores and have their own butchers. These laws are a major force in maintaining unity, act as a social barrier against assimilation, and create a feeling of community amongst the Jewish people.
Another aspect of the kosher laws is the encouragement of a certain degree of aesthetic sensitivity. Judaism prohibits the consumption of animals that have died of natural causes and animals that are deformed or diseased as well as prohibiting the consumption of insects and loathsome foods. It is possible that one idea behind this is too encourage us to view ourselves with dignity and to act with dignity. One of the best defences against doing that which is immoral, is a strong sense of self-esteem and dignity. Evil should be looked at as beneath our dignity, stealing is stooping too low, gossip is petty and small-minded. In order to help us achieve and maintain this level of dignity the Torah prohibits foods like carcasses and diseased animals. Through this we hope to fulfil the verse that states "And you shall be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation... (Deuteronomy 4:20)"
And no, im not going to debate these points. I dont think this is Vesayens issue.
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