01-11-2003 23:22									#31
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quote: since the inspectors could have pin-pointed him and made the way clear for a missile strike.

pin-pointed him? were they after him, or asking to meet him?
He could've allowed the inspectors into all facilities, and could've struck a later deal with the Clinton admin. to save his regime, and advance it.

	01-11-2003 23:31									#32
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker So, his word is perfectly believable, but if they put it on paper it doesn't matter what they say? I don't think either is particularly believable, personally, but you are irrational.

Don't create strawmen. I never said that his word was believable.

If you don't think that documentation is particularly believable, why are you concerned about their 'incomplete' documentation they sent to the UN? Would you have believed it if had been 'complete'? Of course not. The documentation was simply another hoop for the Iraqis to jump through, like the U-2 flights and wooden drones.

	01-11-2003 23:32									#33
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Ok then. If his word was believable, what was wrong with us not believing it? That's what you were implying.

quote: If you don't think that documentation is particularly believable, why are you concerned about their 'incomplete' documentation they sent to the UN? Would you have believed it if had been 'complete'? Of course not. The documentation was simply another hoop for the Iraqis to jump through, like the U-2 flights and wooden drones.

It was a UN requirement.

	01-11-2003 23:59									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel pin-pointed him? were they after him, or asking to meet him? He could've allowed the inspectors into all facilities, and could've struck a later deal with the Clinton admin. to save his regime, and advance it.

All facilities means presidential sites as well, that is, places Saddam lives. Don't you remember the trouble caused when the inspectors weren't allowed into the presidential sites? And even then, we'd still have had the nonsense about hidden facilities and mobile labs. and double bluffs.

Striking a deal with the Clinton admin sounds like fantasy to me.

quote: Ok then. If his word was believable, what was wrong with us not believing it? That's what you were implying.

Even though his word counted for next to nothing, there was next to no evidence that he had any illegal weapons.

quote: It was a UN requirement

The UN never voted on whether Iraq had complied with 1441 (which the documents were part of), the US decided to go it alone.

	02-11-2003 00:02									#35
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Didn't Saddam Insane use chemical weapons on the Kurds in the early 1990s??

1988, I believe.

	02-11-2003 00:03									#36
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quote: Even though his word counted for next to nothing, there was next to no evidence that he had any illegal weapons.

Except the fact that he used to have them and we saw no indication he'd gotten rid them.

quote: The UN never voted on whether Iraq had complied with 1441 (which the documents were part of), the US decided to go it alone.

Actually, the UN never decided what the CONSEQUENCES would be. It was blatantly obvious that Iraq had violated 1441.

	02-11-2003 00:04									#37
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quote: All facilities means presidential sites as well, that is, places Saddam lives. Don't you remember the trouble caused when the inspectors weren't allowed into the presidential sites?

Bullshit. "visiting presidential sites" doesn't mean "shaking Saddam's hand". He has tens of them all around the country. He doesn't have to actually be in one for the inspections to go on.

quote: And even then, we'd still have had the nonsense about hidden facilities and mobile labs. and double bluffs. Striking a deal with the Clinton admin sounds like fantasy to me.

Bull. You could see the complete lack of care by the Clinton admin when he actually drove the "spying" inspectors away.

	02-11-2003 00:38									#38
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Did anyone (even at the time the invasion started) believe this crap about WMD's?

It is and always has been about the oil and the main sponsors of Bush JR's presidential campaign.

And besides, any documentation would be considdered incomplete as long as there wasn't a paper saying "Yes we have WMD's and are funding AQ.

	02-11-2003 00:54									#39
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quote: It is and always has been about the oil

Thanks for the laught. Your first statement was true, but this one was totally false.

	02-11-2003 00:57									#40
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Then what is the reason according to you?

	02-11-2003 01:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by atawa It is and always has been about the oil

And doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is wrong, how?

	02-11-2003 01:04									#42
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker And doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is wrong, how?

Because you did it for the wrong reasons.

	02-11-2003 01:08									#43
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Sure it was about the oil. That's why we are footing the bill now, right?

It is really all about power and influence. The financial aspect pales enormously when put up against that. Who will shape the future of the ME was the question? A traditional despotic system now trying (at the very least) to acquire WMD or a more "modern" or "western" democratic process. Given the huge number of people, the population growth, the religious fundamentalism, and the enormous energy resources, the direction this area was heading had to be changed. Was it a selfish move on the part of the US? Of course...We acted inour long term national interest. If your country didn't then maybe you should ask your government why.

It is one thing to not interfer in other nations soverignty...it is quite another to let the situation become one that can ultimately endanger your citizens.

What I am saying is that it was bull$hit to say what we did. We should have been honest and said we were doing what was in the long term interest of our people and to hell with you if you don't like it.

	02-11-2003 04:36									#44
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quote: Except the fact that he used to have them and we saw no indication he'd gotten rid them.

Except he didn't use them in the Gulf war, and his country was crippled by sanctions. Anyway, it was impossible for him to adequately prove the non-existance of illegal weapons to someone who was determined to go to war for that reason.

quote: Actually, the UN never decided what the CONSEQUENCES would be. It was blatantly obvious that Iraq had violated 1441.

The reason they never decided is that America was scared it would lose the vote, and re-interpreted 1441 at the last minute, as was always their contingency plan.

quote: Bullshit. "visiting presidential sites" doesn't mean "shaking Saddam's hand". He has tens of them all around the country. He doesn't have to actually be in one for the inspections to go on.

He's a paranoid dictator with a good reason to be paranoid. Eventually the gain from giving the inspectors more freedom would be outwieghed by security concerns. In any case, no matter how much freedom the inspectors were given, the US would continue to press for more (standard invasion tactic, the ever-escalating unreasonable demands). Eventually Saddam would have to choose between giving the inspectors so much freedom that the country is no longer his, or refusing to cooperate any further.

quote: Bull. You could see the complete lack of care by the Clinton admin when he actually drove the "spying" inspectors away.

Excuse me? They engaged in some serious bombing raids on at least one occasion, and they continued to enforce the sanctions and no-fly zones. They kept the conflict warm. There is no way that he could have made a deal with the Clinton admin.

	02-11-2003 05:02									#45
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I just would like to say that any person who justifies the war because of violations of UN resolutions is either a hypocrite or blind.

The US has "bypassed" (to say the least) the UN process, as no action has been decided. The UN never issued the right to attack Iraq (read it as you want, no military operation is planned in res. 1441), and the UN had not trusted such an operation to any given actor, US included.

The US blatantly mocked the UN process. So saying the US has attacked Iraq for the sake of the UN is pure bullshit.

(I wonder how the Yanks here would have felt, if Iran had unilaterally attacked Iraq, "for the sake of the UN" )

	02-11-2003 05:05									#46
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quote: The US has "bypassed" (to say the least) the UN process, as no action has been decided. The UN never issued the right to attack Iraq (read it as you want, no military operation is planned in res. 1441), and the UN had not trusted such an operation to any given actor, US included. The US blatantly mocked the UN process. So saying the US has attacked Iraq for the sake of the UN is pure bullshit.

I never said they did it for that sake (remember, right thing for wrong reasons is still right). I was just pointing out that Saddam hadn't really shown he had no WMD's. And the UN kinda needs mocking, IMHO

	02-11-2003 05:11									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel What strikes me as completely unreasonable, is Saddam's reluctance to indeed admit that he has none, if he has none, in the aftermath of the Gulf War. He could have this inspections regime gone ages ago, but instead, he chose to put his country through more than a decade of suffering, while also losing out on oil revenues.

Azazel, I agree that Saddam's behavior is certainly bizzare if the assumption is that he had no WMD.

However, Saddam Hussein IS alive and IS continuing to assassinate scientists or others who cooperate.

Until we eliminate Saddam and the threat he imposes, we will never know, finally, what the truth is/was.

	02-11-2003 05:17									#48
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Told you so

	02-11-2003 05:21									#49
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Ollie, what did you say, that we would not find any or that they did not exist?

	02-11-2003 05:42									#50
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker (remember, right thing for wrong reasons is still right)

No, it's not. Any criminal is bound to get lucky and do someone a favor at one point or another - everyone's guilty of something. Just because a criminal targets someone you don't like is no reason to ignore the crime, because he's going to keep on commiting crimes and not every victim is going to be someone you hate.

	02-11-2003 05:55									#51
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quote: No, it's not. Any criminal is bound to get lucky and do someone a favor at one point or another - everyone's guilty of something. Just because a criminal targets someone you don't like is no reason to ignore the crime, because he's going to keep on commiting crimes and not every victim is going to be someone you hate.

Wrong. For example, a capitalist may give money to a school because of greed, so that there will be better labor on the market for him to hire (this is actually true; Cray gave my highschool a new supercomputer because it's been teaching supercomp science for so long; in fact, we had a supercomputer before Australia ). This doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. Of course, if someone does the right thing for the wrong reasons, then you may want to watch them afterwards to make sure they don't do the WRONG thing, but you can't punish them and you don't want to stop them (it is conterproductive, in fact) for doing the right thing. Another example: if I give money to charity because it's tax deductible, did I do the wrong thing?

	02-11-2003 05:55									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Ollie, what did you say, that we would not find any or that they did not exist?

I said that Powell's speach to UN was pure bullshit and that you could see in his face he knew that himself, but had to comply with the will of his boss. All I heard from Apolyton for saying that was "No, way, why would he lie?". Now we all now that he did.

	02-11-2003 06:16									#53
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Such bullshit was obvious to everyone who had seen Powell, except the Americans, because they wanted to believe their country was right.

I remember some of our brightest posters explaining me how threatening Saddam was with his WMD, and why immediate action was needed. I remember people who were saying the US were the only ones who showed some real respect to the UN., and who could tell me with a straight face the war was just because Saddam didn't comply to the UN. I remember the impressive hope that the Iraqis would welcome the Americans as heroes, hopes that have been "confirmed" when the first liberated Iraqis were dancing in the streets.

Save for the bloody Battle of Baghdad which fortunately didn't happen, this whole Iraqi charade is a "told you so" bait for every sane person on Earth.

Last edited by Spiffor on 02-11-2003 at 06:44

	02-11-2003 06:41									#54
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For once I am actually not making a joke.

My old unit is in Iraq right now and all the personnel that were in the Brigade Staff I was involved with have moved up to Divison level postions.

I was talking with one of them last week and we were discussing politics for some strange reason and it came up that we still hadn' t found any weapons of mass destruction.

I made the joke that even though we haven't found one with all the jets we've found that they buried in the sand with hopes of reclaiming later that they would have probably have buried the WMD and the smart thing to do is scan the desert with sattelites.

It got real quiet on the other end and he said, "what makes you think we haven't already found one and just left it buried for the time being?"

Which I said was stupid because as much as flac as GW is taking he would immediately go public to prove himself right.

And he then he brought up the point that it would have a lot better effect to wait until later in the election campaign when your opponent had backed themselves much farther into the corner and didn't have as much time to react to the revelation.

So I'm not making any rash judgements on this issue anymore.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 02-11-2003 at 06:52

	02-11-2003 06:44									#55
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb And he then he brought up the point that it would have a lot better effect to wait until later in the election campaign when your opponent had backed themselves much farther into the corner and didn't have as much time to react to the revelation.

And he is absolutely right.

	02-11-2003 06:54									#56
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Your government really is corrupted

	02-11-2003 06:55									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Your government really is corrupted

Your just now figuring that out?

	02-11-2003 06:59									#58
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No, but I just saw another evidence

	02-11-2003 07:20									#59
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb And he then he brought up the point that it would have a lot better effect to wait until later in the election campaign when your opponent had backed themselves much farther into the corner and didn't have as much time to react to the revelation.

Isn't everybody expecting that?

	02-11-2003 07:22									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel pin-pointed him? were they after him, or asking to meet him? He could've allowed the inspectors into all facilities, and could've struck a later deal with the Clinton admin. to save his regime, and advance it.

At one point, the US weapons inpectors were CIA agents. You think Saddam would let CIA agents walk around his military bases?