01-11-2003 21:08									#1
	6 months and NO Weapons of Mass Destruction Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Today is 6 months from the end of "major combat action" in Iraq. This is the time limit that I had thought would be reasonable to give us some solid evidence that they were there or to find them. It hasn't happened. While I still support the war and think it was the right thing to do, it now has to be stated that our international justification was bull$hit.

Clearly there were violations of the UN resolution and clearly Saddam was a threat, but the imminent danger of WMD's was just not there. We used them only as a catalyst to do what needed to be done. People talk of Bush as being a straightforward Prez...if so he should have had the balls to say "We don't know about WMD for sure, but it is in our interest to attack anyway" instead of hiding behind legal loopholes and dubious intelligence.

I have said for months that if they weren't found I would start the thread myself...Here it is.

Intelligence failure or outright lies...You are responsible to the people Mr. President. Where are the WMD's??

	01-11-2003 21:19									#2
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Well, we had strong evidence showing Saddam was trying to acquire WMDs. It now merely appears as though he wasn't as sucsessful as we thought.

	01-11-2003 21:20									#3
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Since we havent found Saddam, how can we prove that he really exists? The fact that he has been in the news for years, should be some proof of his existance.

The same argument can be said about those weapons, we know he have had them, since we know that he has used them on earlier occasions. The fact that he seems to have destroyed them before the invasion was impossible to predict since he spoke to the world as if he still had them.

This invasion of Iraq was fully justified when it began and it clearly still is.

	01-11-2003 21:25									#4
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I agree that the invasion of Iraq was justified. That is not my point. Clearly this a$$hole had to go. The international justification we used for doing it is my issue. Saying that he was trying to get them is clearly a violation of UN resolutions and a legal justification for attack. The problem is that we told the world that he had them, we knew where they were, and that the danger was imminent. Clearly this justification was in error. The war was the right thing to do. The reasoning used before the attack was not.

	01-11-2003 21:29									#5
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO While I still support the war and think it was the right thing to do, it now has to be stated that our international justification was bull$hit.

Thank you for acknowledging that.

Although it's not a key issue. About everyone expected some WMD to be found, but the justification of "imminent threat" was utter bullshit and an outright lie, and will still be utter bullshit even if they find remains of his programs.

	01-11-2003 21:35									#6
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO People talk of Bush as being a straightforward Prez...if so he should have had the balls to say "We don't know about WMD for sure, but it is in our interest to attack anyway" instead of hiding behind legal loopholes and dubious intelligence.

Are you kidding? You won't get one statement from this Administration saying they were wrong. They don't play like that.

Like Hersh said, the imminent attack rationale was used justify a war that had to be fought right now, and so far it's turned out to bogus. However, the lions share of weapons depots are unsearched. (something like 100 out of 130). I'd wait another six months .

	01-11-2003 21:41									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Illyrien The same argument can be said about those weapons, we know he have had them, since we know that he has used them on earlier occasions. The fact that he seems to have destroyed them before the invasion was impossible to predict since he spoke to the world as if he still had them.

Saddam hasn't used chemical weapons since the US stopped supporting him.

	01-11-2003 21:44									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay However, the lions share of weapons depots are unsearched. (something like 100 out of 130). I'd wait another six months .

This is very true. The size of some of these dumps is enormous and will take a great deal of time to search. It is entirely possible that they will be found there. BUT, why have no former Iraqi officers talked...why have none of the captured upper etchelion people talked...why have no detectors gone off in the area of these dumps???

They may be there, but it is hard to say that the danger was imminent...at least from WMD's. Powell went to the UN and said "they are here" and they weren't.

	01-11-2003 21:46									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Saddam hasn't used chemical weapons since the US stopped supporting him.

Sorry but this statement deserves a big...SO WHAT?? It is totally irrelevant to the topic and merely an attempt to flame. Got anything to contribute?

	01-11-2003 21:47									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Illyrien Since we havent found Saddam, how can we prove that he really exists? The fact that he has been in the news for years, should be some proof of his existance. This invasion of Iraq was fully justified when it began and it clearly still is.

?

	01-11-2003 21:50									#11
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Sorry but this statement deserves a big...SO WHAT?? It is totally irrelevant to the topic and merely an attempt to flame. Got anything to contribute?

How is it irrelevant? You can't assume he has weapons simply because he used them more then a decade ago.

	01-11-2003 21:50									#12
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Powell went to the UN and said "they are here" and they weren't.

Well that was a really sad performance. He was clearly uncomfortable, which made him a bad liar.

	01-11-2003 21:57									#13
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Where are the WMD's??

I still believe they are in place that will be "discovered" during the presidential campaign.

	01-11-2003 22:25									#14
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What strikes me as completely unreasonable, is Saddam's reluctance to indeed admit that he has none, if he has none, in the aftermath of the Gulf War. He could have this inspections regime gone ages ago, but instead, he chose to put his country through more than a decade of suffering, while also losing out on oil revenues.

	01-11-2003 22:34									#15
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sorry wrong thread

edited out

	01-11-2003 22:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Saddam hasn't used chemical weapons since the US stopped supporting him.

Didn't Saddam Insane use chemical weapons on the Kurds in the early 1990s?? Hadn't we stopped supporting him by that time??

	01-11-2003 22:39									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Illyrien Since we havent found Saddam, how can we prove that he really exists?

I think Cheney went to meet him in person is good enough evidence.

OTOH, no such thing can be said of the alleged BCN weapons.

	01-11-2003 22:46									#18
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Azazel:
I think it had to do with scaring his population and Iran. Saddam was in the uncomfortable position where he had to remain in power despite the willingness from the population and Iran to see him go (hence the scare tactics), and despite the pressure from the US (hence the appeasement tactics).

From what I read in the newspapers right after the liberation, it seemed many Iraqis actually feared Saddam would come back with his chem weapons.

Had such scare not existed, Saddam may well have lost power in the hands of a Iran-supported uprising.

Besides, don't forget Saddam is paranoid and fears of being assassinated at any time. I think it explains a part of the restrictions he made to the inspections.

	01-11-2003 22:48									#19
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Someone is going to answer my questions damn it, or there will be tons of gay fairy dust released into the air.

	01-11-2003 22:51									#20
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How is this still news?

I don't get how people are interested by "WMD's still missing".

What's funny is this makes me think of So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish. You know, the part about the dolphins

	01-11-2003 22:51									#21
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quote: I still believe they are in place that will be "discovered" during the presidential campaign.

	01-11-2003 22:54									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Saddam hasn't used chemical weapons since the US stopped supporting him.

He hasn't had much to use them on, except maybe rebels.

	01-11-2003 22:55									#23
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quote: I think it had to do with scaring his population and Iran. Saddam was in the uncomfortable position where he had to remain in power despite the willingness from the population and Iran to see him go (hence the scare tactics), and despite the pressure from the US (hence the appeasement tactics).

Personally, I think that those reasons are bull. When his people revolted the last time against him, it wasn't the chem weapons that did the job, but the old-fashioned army, even the bleeding army afte GWI. Same with Iran. Saddam has already used his WMD on Iran, and they proved to be a complimenting warfare factor, at best i.e. if Chem and Bio weapons were the only thing he's got, they aren't going to help him much, anyway.

All sides knew this. Therefore, I hardly think that it was the prospect of being attacked with chems and bio weapons that kept Iran in bay. They simply realized that they don't and can't get into such a mess. If the USA gov't is now struggling to hold Iraq together, imagine what a challenge that would be to immensly weaker Iran.

	01-11-2003 23:01									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel What strikes me as completely unreasonable, is Saddam's reluctance to indeed admit that he has none, if he has none, in the aftermath of the Gulf War. He could have this inspections regime gone ages ago, but instead, he chose to put his country through more than a decade of suffering, while also losing out on oil revenues.

The Iraqis repeatedly insisted that they had got rid of all their weapons. We chose not to believe them.

	01-11-2003 23:02									#25
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quote: The Iraqis repeatedly insisted that they had got rid of all their weapons. We chose not to believe them.

They also failed to comply with UN requirements by providing incomplete documentation.

	01-11-2003 23:04									#26
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quote: The Iraqis repeatedly insisted that they had got rid of all their weapons. We chose not to believe them.

They could wrap this in the 90s. Instead they chose not to, and in the end, sent the inspectors away.

	01-11-2003 23:05									#27
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Well that was a really sad performance. He was clearly uncomfortable, which made him a bad liar.

They always give Powell the rotten jobs. Environmental summits, ME peace missions and spouting nonsense to the UN. Whilst Cheney gets easy missions like taking a trip to India and Pakistan and then claiming credit when they decide not to kill each other.

	01-11-2003 23:12									#28
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: The Iraqis repeatedly insisted that they had got rid of all their weapons. We chose not to believe them. They also failed to comply with UN requirements by providing incomplete documentation.

It's beyond me why anyone would consider documentation proof of anything in a case like this. We were always going to pick holes in whatever they produced. Iraq was never meant to be able to clear it's name.

	01-11-2003 23:15									#29
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[q]It's beyond me why anyone would consider documentation proof of anything in a case like this. We were always going to pick holes in whatever they produced. Iraq was never meant to be able to clear it's name.[./q]

So, his word is perfectly believable, but if they put it on paper it doesn't matter what they say?

I don't think either is particularly believable, personally, but you are irrational.

	01-11-2003 23:17									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: The Iraqis repeatedly insisted that they had got rid of all their weapons. We chose not to believe them. They could wrap this in the 90s. Instead they chose not to, and in the end, sent the inspectors away.

How could they have wrapped it up? Just by saying that "we don't have any chemical weapons"? Saddam feared for his regime, since the inspectors could have pin-pointed him and made the way clear for a missile strike.