02-11-2003 17:26									#1
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It's that time again, to show you 'fun' cases from our justice system.

A man raped a woman and got caught. They threw his ass to jail, right? No, his employer said they'd fire him if he had to go to jail, so the court thought it would be a horrible bonus punishment. So, because of his excellent working history, no jail time, some time on parole.

Some guy hit some other guy with a baseball bat in the head, the bat actually broke in half. Then the victim tried to flee and run, and the other guy took a gun and shot him in the back. They threw his ass to jail for a long time, right? No. No jail time. It was just a severe battery or assault.

Are these just little cases? No, this reflects the way ALL punishments are given.

I wonder if this gives me the right to apply for refugee status? I mean, ****, my safety is not protected here.

	02-11-2003 17:29									#2
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With this thread title, we need to have that sound from the TV show at the end of every post - you know, where they change scenes and locals.

Bom-BOM!

That way we know we're going on to the next case.

	02-11-2003 17:36									#3
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Pekka- do you have anything detailing the reasoning in more detail? Soundbites are pointless in issues such as these.

	02-11-2003 17:47									#4
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Lazarus and the Gimp, I try to find for the beating and shooting thing.

On the raping, it was seen that the man did rape and he did confess. He showed his (or his lawyer) the work history of his, which stated he was excellent worker. So, it was seen that this guy is a good guy, and because of that, they lowered his sentence to paroled.

	02-11-2003 17:51									#5
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You Europeans are so uptight about peoples "right" to a job. That's amazing, Pekka.

Bom-BOM!

	02-11-2003 17:58									#6
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Exactly! Who gives a damn if this man loses his job? IMO that has got nothing to do with the case. So what?!?!?!
Isn't the justice supposed to be blind? How the hell is it unfair that the man might lose his job over this? So what! He's no good rapist, that's what he is. Psychos are pretty smart people usually, maybe we should let them out because they scored good in MENSA tests?

In here, it's rare if you go to prison when you rape someone. That's so wrong. Even pedophiles with multiple victims get no jail time usually. Here, no one goes to jail. It's a ****ing criminal haven, that's what it is. We have been so careful that we protect the criminals rights, but it's gotten to a point where we forgot all about the victims and their rights. It's a sad thing, very sad thing. And one of the reasons I want to get the hell out here. I don't want to pay taxes that holds up these kinds of intitutions. NO sir.

	02-11-2003 17:58									#7
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I went looking for it, and found this.

quote: Estonians Dominate Wife-Carrying Championship TAMPERE, Finland - An Estonian couple has leaped over timber and waded through waist-high water — for their third straight victory in the wife-carrying world championships in Finland. Egle Soll carried Margo Uusorg over the 760-foot course in just over a minute. They beat 22 couples from six countries, including the United States. The Estonians introduced the efficient style of carrying their partners upside down over their backs in 1998 and have won every contest since. According to local legend, the contest dates back to the 1800s when a local bully challenged other men in the village to prove their worth by carrying their wives — “a proper wife, a stolen wife, or someone else's wife” — through an obstacle course. In the modern-day version, the couple does not have to be married to compete.

You Finns are really weird, aren't you?

	02-11-2003 18:00									#8
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This is closer to the mark.

quote: Olavi Heinonen, the President of Finland's Supreme Court, would like to see public discussion on the sentencing handed down by the lower courts for violent offences. He takes the view that this country has an imbalance between the relatively light punishments dealt out for assaults and other violent crimes and those that are handed down for crimes against property. "Even though there have been attempts to change the relationship between property crimes and crimes against the person, in my view they have not been very successful", commented Heinonen. Heinonen was responding to the results of a survey carried out jointly by Helsingin Sanomat, the commercial TV channel MTV3, and media from six other countries, in which sentences were compared for a number of model crimes. In addition to Finland, the survey embraced Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Holland, and Canada. Finland was the only one of the Nordic countries that would have refrained from issuing a short prison sentence on a man who broke another customer's nose after assaulting him in a bar. Courts in the other Scandinavian countries would all have issued prison sentences of from one to three months. Heinonen is not alone in feeling that Finland is soft on this sort of casual violence. State Prosecutor Matti Kuusimäki regards the punishment handed out to the man in this instance - a perfectly typical Friday or Saturday night offence - as insufficient. "The sentences for violent offences do not give a very flattering picture of the way that Finland responds to violations of this personal nature", observed Kuusimäki. In other cases, Finnish courts look to be relatively well in synch with those in the other countries involved in the survey. Of the Nordic quartet, Norway would appear to have the toughest line and Denmark the most lenient. The offences examined included shoplifting, speeding, driving while drunk (and manslaughter - all countries handed down prison sentences of 1-5 years for the running-over of a child on a pedestrian crossing), an assault by a 16-year-old on a stranger in the street, dealing in drugs, drug smuggling, rape, the shooting of a violent husband by his wife, and the murder of two police officers while in the line of duty. Holland's liberal policy on drugs shows up in that the smuggling of a 10-kilo consignment of amphetamines would merit only a 2-3 year prison term in The Netherlands. In Finland it would get you nine years. Rape cases are dealt with relatively similarly in all seven countries, and the 3 years 3 months meted out to the Finnish individual in the example case is towards the upper end in Scandinavian terms, but a good deal less than the 7 years a German court would recommend. Interestingly, and somewhat alarmingly, one of the areas of violent crime where the Finnish courts would come down most heavily is in the killing of her husband by a woman who has repeatedly suffered from his drunken beatings. For taking a shotgun to her spouse after he has threatened to kill her if she leaves him, the woman would get 9 years hard time in Finland, a good deal more than anywhere else. A Danish court would offer a suspended sentence or might even pass no sentence at all. The Canadian expert on the panel of respondents said that a court in her country would almost certainly give a maximum sentence of a year, even if the maximum penalty for manslaughter is life imprisonment. Given the lax Finnish response to bar-room brawls, which can often end just as bloodily and fatally, the 9-year sentence seems almost perverse. Heinonen himself regarded the example as excessive. Both he and Kuusimäki wondered aloud at the lack of courtroom understanding for a battered spouse, and speculated whether ultimately this was just another ugly reflection of the apparent disregard the society has for people hitting one another.

	02-11-2003 18:01									#9
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Not even talking about our practices about mild rapes and severe rapes.. you have to do someone in all 3 holes the same time so you get prison, because that's really raping. There are many cases, that because the penetrating phase itself was short, it was only mild rape, thus sentence is shorter, which means 99% no prison.

I'm getting so fired up with this again, it makes absolutely no sense at all!

	02-11-2003 18:03									#10
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quote: The decision in late September by the Court of Appeals of Eastern Finland to reduce the sentence of a man convicted of rape has sparked an extensive public debate on sentencing in rape cases. The man had been convicted of raping his wife, and was initially sentenced to 18 months in prison. This sentence handed down by the lower court was suspended by the appeals court, and the man was ordered to do 90 hours of community service in addition to his suspended sentence. The controversy was inflamed further by a statement made by the presiding judge, Esko Kilpeläinen, in an interview with the tabloid newspaper Ilta Sanomat; Kilpeläinen expressed the view that the rape of a person known to the rapist is less serious than that of a stranger. Deputy Prosecutor General Jorma Kalske has not yet seen the controversial decision, but it is on its way to the office of the Prosecutor General. Later the office will decide whether or not to appeal the case to the Supreme Court. Kalske does not yet want to take a stand on the decision of the Court of Appeals. However, he is aware of the debate over whether or not the rape of a stranger really is that much more serious than that of an acquaintance. Kalske feels that knowing the victim could even be seen as an aggravating circumstance for a rapist - if the assailant is the victim's former husband or boyfriend, for instance. "In cases like this a man quite consciously defiles the woman", Kalske explains. Professor Suvi Ronkainen of the University of Lapland also sees the rape of an acquaintance more as an aggravating, than a mitigating circumstance, because the psychological damage is greater. "Acquaintance rape is psychologically much heavier than that of a stranger. With an acquaintance the feeling of trust in the whole world and the opposite sex are broken", Ronkainen emphasises. Ronkainen is happy that the court's decision has led to a hot debate. "It is extremely positive that people have reacted. The taboo surrounding rape is crumbling." Professor Ronkainen feels that it is good that people are willing to criticise the institutions of justice. She recalls that this is not the first time that the sense of justice of the public at large has been at odds with that of the court system. Some decisions made by Finnish courts suggest to Ronkainen a lack of understanding of the nature of sexual violence and violence that takes place within couple relationships. Ronkainen emphasises that contrary to appearances, the criminal is not gender-neutral. Men are seen as the main perpetrators of crimes, with another man as the victim of physical violence. "The law forgets that when sex becomes involved, the question is not just that of a battle between equals: with sex, there are many more ways to hurt someone", Ronkainen points out.

	02-11-2003 18:05									#11
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Prison for braking someones nose? Get a clue, no such thing

YOu can brake someones legs and even then it's big if you go to jail for it. I'm not joking, and that's why it's so sad. We believe in good of the people..

NOT FORGETTING TO MENTION, that YOU WILL receieve punishment IF YOU defend yourself. There are many cases where someone has stepped in when rape is taking place and beat the living **** out of the rapist. Then the defendor gets higher sentence, than the rapist . Also, if someone attacks you, let's say with a knife, you shoot him in the leg with licensed gun and the leg turns out to heal good. 100% you get the punishment.
Can I get a refugee status?

	02-11-2003 18:06									#12
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No wait a minute, according to law you can't rape your wife. I mean technically you can, but that's not rape in our courts.. ? You can beat the living **** out of your wife every weekend and the highest price is paying some fines.

	02-11-2003 18:11									#13
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Besides, last time a man drove over pedestrian, when a little girl was crossing the road. He was speeding, drove against red lights, and started braking after the girl hit the hood of the car the second time (she flew quite a bit). She also had Getaway in Stockholm videotape which is about speeding in city areas. Can you guess what he got? No jail time. Listen, if you get 2 years or under jail time, it is AUTOMATICALLY reduced to paroled sentence. You don't actually sit in jail for it. If you get 5 years and you're a first timer when it comes to going to prison, you sit half. meaning you sit 3 years, but since you are most llikely paroled before that, you'll be sitting from 1 to 2 years. And that usually means killing someone.

	02-11-2003 18:22									#14
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Listen, you can get beat up here for no reason. Sure that's possible everywhere, but here it is sometimes even likely. Every one is drunk, there is going to be a fight or beating if there is a bar included. It's a wild west sometimes here. I remember bar room brawl with ~30 participants, chairs were flying and people beating the crap out of each other. They needed over 12 police car units there to cool it down. No one got any prison.

You can get beat up, and it's seen as a fight, even if you don't hit back. You can get yourself to hospilta, near death, and then MAYBE someone goes to prison for a year MAX. In theory, we have ***** for sentences, and in practice it's even worse. Drug offenders however do recieve the higher scale of the punishment rate. I can sell let's say 1 kilo of amphetamine and recieve maximum sentence here. I can kill 3 people and recieve less. But one thing is sure, I'll be out in few years anyway.

	02-11-2003 18:23									#15
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quote: Here, no one goes to jail. It's a ****ing criminal haven, that's what it is. We have been so careful that we protect the criminals rights, but it's gotten to a point where we forgot all about the victims and their rights. It's a sad thing, very sad thing.

Same here. The severest punishment here is 20 years I think, and no death penalty afcourse. I don't know the average sentence, but only rarely someone gets 20. Recently some guy went into a courtroom, shot his wife who was suing him for something, shot the female judge, killed them both. He got the maximum punishment PLUS from now on they have metal detectors in the courtrooms. We just don't learn from other peoples experiences here

And here is the ultimate example of the lousy court system: 17 year old guy drives his new (daddy bought BMW) 50km/h OVER the speed limit, in the city, kills two 16 year old girls.

Gets symbolic time plus a large parole sentence 'cause court doesn't think destroying another young life (his) will solve everything

The guy is now in Switzerland in a private school (father has money) and he is going to serve something, if anything, when his schooling is over. So judged the court.

Pekka, there is one big difference though.

In a recent survey of the most competitive countries in the world, Finland came out first (again). Coatia is 53. So you bastards have it better then us. Everyone has*.


* Yes, whining is the national sport here, I m just doing my part

	02-11-2003 18:28									#16
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VetLegion, that's true about the competitive thing. But it's all bogus. We have tons of highly skilled folks here, that's all it is. It means Nokia makes it good, but what the regular citizen gets, skills or no skills, is crap.

Anyway, your justice system sounds familiar. But you at least have 20 years. We.. 12 years is LIFE. How the hell 12 is life? Life is the whole naturaly life of the person. Maybe I should go back to high school because I clearly don't understand the meaning of life.

And it's RARELY used. Not even if you kill people, no you don't get it. YOu have to be like a true mad dog to get the life sentence. You need to be raping and killing whole bunch of people and then sexually assault the judge and grab the court guards balls and crunch them to get life. But then they feel sorry for you because you are such a mad dog and see it as our systems failure that we produced such unfortunate **** and apologize and reduce the sentence. I'm so fed up! I feel like my rights are not protected!

	02-11-2003 18:28									#17
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It gets even better. Guy shoots another (unarmed) guy in the head, in front of a disco - gets 4 years 11 months. One month less than the minimum.

And there are some really tragicomic recent verdicts here, but I don't want to embarass my country too much

	02-11-2003 18:29									#18
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sounds about right. that 5 years thing. That's what you'd get in here too. But if the victim, the dead one, said FU first, you'd get few months off.. after all, he did start it.
And again, it's not that these sentences are rare. Harder punishments.. now those are the rare ones.

	02-11-2003 18:30									#19
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quote: And it's RARELY used. Not even if you kill people, no you don't get it. YOu have to be like a true mad dog to get the life sentence. You need to be raping and killing whole bunch of people and then sexually assault the judge and grab the court guards balls and crunch them to get life. But then they feel sorry for you because you are such a mad dog and see it as our systems failure that we produced such unfortunate **** and apologize and reduce the sentence. I'm so fed up! I feel like my rights are not protected!

Thanks, you made my day. I think I should go protest now over that guys 20 years sentence. Too much is too much, we should look after civilized countries like Finland. 12!

	02-11-2003 18:32									#20
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yeah. I'd be laughing if I wasn't crying. But seems that you have it bad also.

	02-11-2003 18:39									#21
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Would this give my refugee status though? You can get it if you flee from country that has nazi laws, but what about when it's the other way around?

	02-11-2003 23:22									#22
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If you could show you were in danger- yes you could claim refugee status.

There's not much point, though. As an EU citizen you could just walk into any other EU nation and get a job whenever the mood takes you.

	02-11-2003 23:41									#23
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Pekka should seek asylum in Texas, unless he cares about large scale fraud too.

	03-11-2003 00:29									#24
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Pekka,

The US is the reverse, almost anything (unless you have REALLY good lawyers), can get you 5, 10, 20, or even 50 years in prison. We need to find a balance between too much (USA) and too little (EU).

	03-11-2003 00:36									#25
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There's very little harmonization on prison terms in the EU, so sentences vary wildly. Finland appears to be a bit extreme on the leniant side....

	03-11-2003 01:57									#26
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I know it's sometimes too extreme in the states. Like I have said, I don't support DP, except for war criminals, and crimes happening during the war. BUT I DO support sentences that lasts the natural remaining life of the criminal. It's bad if you get sentenced for 15 years there and you did only very little. And prisons there are no joke either. I wouldn't say our prisons are joke, but it's much more relaxed..

But which one I'd rather choose? Frankly, I think I'd go for the US style. Because I feel like justice here never happens. In there justice might be too harsh IMO many times, but at least, sometimes they get it right. Something in between would be ideal justice system in my opinion.

	03-11-2003 02:05									#27
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We're among the toughest "sentencers" in Europe... I can't remember the nr, but a good percentage of life sentences mean life. On the other hand, some aspects of the penal law are quite odd, like a very low punishment for involuntary manslaughter.

	03-11-2003 02:36									#28
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I'm still pissed about O.J. getting off

	03-11-2003 02:38									#29
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That one was totally bizarre to watch, yes....

	03-11-2003 02:56									#30
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* Adagio escuses for not having read the whoel thread

Some time ago there were some big case. Someone did something... not sure what it was, but I think it was something about cheating big time taxes or something... I didn't follow up on it... but something defently made me angry:

This guy got to jail (That's the good part ), but while sitting in jail he actually had his own TV show... and no, he wasn't any famous actor or something, he was just a bussines man
I don't know what the show was about, but I doubt it was made to tell others to not do the same mistake as him, since the few things I read about him, sounded like if he didn't regret what he did...