03-11-2003 01:19									#1
	Sailing through GWT territory? Full PM-box? Change here!

Should we just sail through GWT terr without regard to what they say? What would be the consequences? What should PoA do otherwise? Please debate. A poll will be held in ~3 days.

	03-11-2003 02:39									#2
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I don't think they'll kill the boat without asking us to leave first. So just sail tru. Then leave if they ask.

	03-11-2003 03:17									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think we should just park her for a bit.

Really, what are we going to gain by sailing her through right now? Nothing except ticking off GWT. The knowledge gained will not be all that useful for sometime, other than for calculations and giving the info to microfl.

If they refuse to answer in a few turns, send her. The info is not critical right now.

	03-11-2003 03:40									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Hagbart I don't think they'll kill the boat without asking us to leave first. So just sail tru. Then leave if they ask.

They have already protested her being in their waters.

I am against angering 1 of 2 other significant civs left in the game.

	03-11-2003 07:14									#5
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Wait for permission or wait for Astronomy. It's their border. We gain nothing by disrespecting them. Park the galley in a place where we can observe their naval movements.

--Togas

	03-11-2003 07:38									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yeah, we shouldn't provoke them without a really good reason to, and IMO exploring the top of their lands is not really that good a reason. We will either work something out with them or stay put until a new mission for the Galley becomes apparent (I don't see this happening before Astronomy at the earliest!)

	03-11-2003 08:33									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Or we could sail around the other way....

	03-11-2003 10:13									#8
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Do not even think of sending that galley into GWT territory until we get permission. One rep hit is enough if you ask me.

	03-11-2003 11:26									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

MZ, have you tried to send them some more messages?

E_T

	03-11-2003 13:40									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Agreed on not provoking GWT needlessly.

	03-11-2003 14:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither They have already protested her being in their waters. I am against angering 1 of 2 other significant civs left in the game.

Oh.. I didn't know that.

	04-11-2003 01:54									#12
	Re: Sailing through GWT territory? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by BigFree What should PoA do otherwise? Please debate. A poll will be held in ~3 days.

	04-11-2003 02:25									#13
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I do not believe that we should violate sovreign territory. They are already questioning the level of trust they can place in us...let's not give them further reason to doubt.

	04-11-2003 02:25									#14
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I also agree we should park it for now, awaiting permission to enter their waters or Astronomy. We already moved in w/o first securing their permission, and they reacted angrily. I'd rather not push that button again.

-Arrian

	04-11-2003 05:02									#15
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The question BigFree is asking, is not whether or not we should said through their territory, but what we are going to do instead of sailing through.

Having not looked at a map for a while I reserve judgement on the issue.

	04-11-2003 05:27									#16
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Actually, he DID ask if we should sail through.

I must join in on the resounding chorus of "Hades no!" on that issue - what would we possibly gain that would be worth offending them at this point?

Instead: I would park it at the current "suicide galley" point and watch for any activity near there for the long term. Think of it as a sentinel for settlers or other intercontinental activity.

	04-11-2003 06:47									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I asked both questions; but the first question is receiving the most answers while the second isn't getting too many.

Is offending GWT going to cause them to not trade with us in a mutually beneficial fashion? I think not.

Is offending GWT going to cause them to declare war on us? I think not.

Is offending GWT going to cause them to join forces with CGN against the 'evil tresspasser's' APO? I think not.

Is offending GWT going to make CFC want to join with either GWT or CGN because we are 'evil tresspasser's'? I think not.

Has GWT shown us any 'love' whatsoever? I think not.

	04-11-2003 07:08									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

+1 to sentinel duty regardless of what GWT says/does. By the time its usefulness as a sentinel is gone (astronomy) we'll be able to move outside GWT borders anyways.

If there was anything to gain by sailing through GWT territory though, I wouldn't give a rats behind about what they thought about it. Given that there is little to gain by tresspassing though, there is little point to angering them just to do it.

quote: Is offending GWT going to cause them to declare war on us? I think not.

I wouldn't be so sure given how they up and declared war on CGN for less. They may figure we can't do squat to them anyways (and they'd be right--for now) and do it just for giggles.

	04-11-2003 07:44									#19
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I would laugh if they declared war on us. They'd end up like us; worring about War Weariness....

At least we can stop our War Weariness by taking out GCA.

	04-11-2003 07:55									#20
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I don't think there is anything to be gained by rushing to get through their territory, but I see BF's point.

However the Galley can idle there for a time - we can still attempt to get a deal done for moving through; perhaps tell them that if they refused to let us through we would support CGN in any escalation of their war, but if they let us through we would stay neutral.

If we have no luck after a few more turns, then perhaps tell them to stick it and sail through. They are angry we entered their waters and they have every right to be. Let us at least try the reasonable route a little longer before we lose our patience with their screwing around.

	04-11-2003 09:15									#21
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What exactly are we going to get by sailing through their waters? I'd be much more interested in whether or not two or three galleys loaded potentially with settler/spear pairs are preparing to sail across the Suicide Seas. We have their map - we don't gain anything by sailing through their waters.

Even if your neighbor is an 80 year old man with no telephone, you don't **** him off by pooing on his front porch, just because it's more convenient than walking inside. You never know when he might be able to help you, however unlikely it seems now.

	04-11-2003 09:22									#22
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FP - there IS some land we don't know about in GWTland, which is the only reason we are heading up that way. Plus there are suspicions (*only suspicions at the moment, mind) that there may be another landmass of some kind, and there could be a route there from the North of GWT.

	04-11-2003 09:24									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Even if your neighbor is an 80 year old man with no telephone, you don't **** him off by pooing on his front porch, just because it's more convenient than walking inside. You never know when he might be able to help you, however unlikely it seems now.

That is the best and deepest analogy I have ever read in this forum...

	04-11-2003 09:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I would laugh if they declared war on us.

I wouldn't. Months of diplomatic effort down the toilet over a stupid and practically worthless move.

	04-11-2003 09:34									#25
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Don't do it. Let's even back the galley off. Do we really need the info that bad? Sitting directly outside their borders will anger them as well, or annoy them at least. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be happy with CGN or CFC parking a galley right outside the borders of our continent, spying on us and possibly blocking some moves of our ship....

	04-11-2003 10:13									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt FP - there IS some land we don't know about in GWTland, which is the only reason we are heading up that way. Plus there are suspicions (*only suspicions at the moment, mind) that there may be another landmass of some kind, and there could be a route there from the North of GWT.

Respectfully, the reasons stated here are reminiscent of that 80 year old man I mentioned in my last post. Take another look at the world map:

There are three slightly unexplored sections of GWT's land - Northwest, Central North, and Northeast. What do we expect to find there that is useful to us NOW?

Central North is clearly tundra. What do we expect to find there? Game? Furs? How do either of those things affect us now in a meaningful manner? We already know what luxuries GWT has at the moment.

Northwest can be expected to probably be tundra, given the line of the polar ice caps. Given the proximity to the top of the map, there's probably also very little there, if any.

Northeast probably DOES have one city we can't see. What of it? Exactly what useful benefit does the confirmation of one more GWT city - when they have as many as we do! - give to us? How can we use this information in a meaningful, useful manner?

It may be true that there is another landmass, northeast of GWT and northwest of APO. (Rather unlikely given the land/water percentage currently evidenced on the map, but for the sake of argument...) I think we stand better chances of finding said landmass from the northern tip of OUR shores than theirs - or certainly close enough to make it worth it to try from there. Do my esteemed colleagues REALLY mean to suggest we should suicide galley our boat northeast just to search for a landmass which is highly unlikely when we have more immediate useful measures?

Gentlemen: Sentinels are the key to information. Knowing what passes the only easy, safe conduit between or landmass and theirs would be VERY useful information. Further supporting this point is that it will not aggravate ANYONE if we are to do so!

Against this you set the certain, absolute aggravation of GWT - with unpredictable consequences, but certainly not good ones, leaving only the bad half of the spectrum. In return, you offer a benefit which is at best dubious, and at worst utterly useless to us.

Apolyton is a proud nation full of proud people, but so is GWT. If we want respect, we must give it - and besides, there are many better uses for our boat, that cost us NOTHING diplomatically!

	04-11-2003 11:19									#27
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I'm not saying we will hit the motherlode by trapesing accross GWT territory. My point is that we have nothing to lose. Reputation...who gives a flying flick?? Let's say GWT knocks off CGN. Will we then need GWT for anything? They will be our only competion then, what good are good diplomatic ties at that point? Wars will be started for many different reasons. Are you saying that if we don't give them a valid one, then it won't happen? Are you saying that if we are nice to GWT then they will decise to war with CGN or CFC instead of us?

I ask you to look at the larger picture of how many teams are left in this game and who is in what position to help whom. Apolyton is in the driver's seat. Not GWT, not CGN, and certainly not CFC. Do we need to rub this in everyones faces? No. But, do we need to take crap from anyone? No.

Again, do we gain any really noteworthy by going through GWT's territory. The chances that we find something 'big' is negligible; but I say that us finding out by going through their territory, against their will, is a move we can make that has Apolyton paying little or nothing in reparations to GWT.

There are only two ways we can get 'hurt' by doing this:

1. If CGN and GWT suddenly become chummy and 'embargo' Apolyton.

2. GWT gifts a city on the other Continent to GCA to keep them in the game. I think we should actually speak to CGN and GWT about this and let them know that any such act would be regarded as an act of war against Apolyton.

In the end I'm willing to forget going through their territory if they pledge that they will not gift a city or otherwise help GCA out in our war against them.

	04-11-2003 12:21									#28
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I'm not saying we will hit the motherlode by trapesing accross GWT territory. My point is that we have nothing to lose. Reputation...who gives a flying flick??

Apparently everyone but you. Are you saying we suddenly shouldn't give a rat's ass about reputation at all? Carefully crafted diplomacy since February just shattered from one day to another turning Apolyton into the most hated, despised, and untrustworthy team in the game? Over my dead body.

quote: Let's say GWT knocks off CGN. Will we then need GWT for anything? They will be our only competion then, what good are good diplomatic ties at that point? Wars will be started for many different reasons. Are you saying that if we don't give them a valid one, then it won't happen? Are you saying that if we are nice to GWT then they will decise to war with CGN or CFC instead of us?

Now let's say GWT [i]doesn't[/i[ knock off CGN. Now how is this brilliant little plan at pissing off GWT of any use to us other than to lose a potential trade partner and counter vs. CGN?

quote: I ask you to look at the larger picture of how many teams are left in this game and who is in what position to help whom. Apolyton is in the driver's seat. Not GWT, not CGN, and certainly not CFC. Do we need to rub this in everyones faces? No. But, do we need to take crap from anyone? No.

We are in the driver's seat? show me one indicator which proves we are. Hate to burst your bubble but we are not the #1 civ right now.

quote: 2. GWT gifts a city on the other Continent to GCA to keep them in the game. I think we should actually speak to CGN and GWT about this and let them know that any such act would be regarded as an act of war against Apolyton.

Yeah and we will do what, invade them with a suicide galley fleet?Get serious, we can only do what is in our capacity to do and going to war with GWT or CGN right now is as useless as a radio to a deaf man. Who gives a f*ck if GCA survives with a city over there? Are we interested in killing GCA as a nation or taking over their land and eliminating their influence in this continent?

quote: In the end I'm willing to forget going through their territory if they pledge that they will not gift a city or otherwise help GCA out in our war against them.

Again, it seems you're the only one who thinks that looking into this thread. Me thinks you need to realize that good diplomacy is just as important as war in winning demo games.

	04-11-2003 12:58									#29
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BF, it's true that we may lose little by sailing through... but maybe more than a little... and what if you ask the question the other way round? Do we GAIN anything by sailing there?

From what others mention here, I believe we gain absolutely nothing by sailing through the GWT waters. F-P sums it up just right - ANY kind of information on that part of the world is totally useless to us at this point in the game. And for the next 50-100 turns.

	04-11-2003 13:14									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

MZ, you are wrong, we are in the drivers seat, you only don't see it....

Besides, what kinds of "Carefully crafted diplomacy since February..." are you talking about? CFC already knows who we are and what we are about. CGN wants to be our friend in the worst way. GCA hates our guts and GWT is pissing us off. Tell me, what kind of 'Diplomacy Magic' are you working with to get any favors from any team besides CFC? Explain to me how we are not in the drivers seat if GWT and CGN continue their war, cold or not? Tell me why you think CGN and GWT's relations will get better?

quote: Yeah and we will do what, invade them with a suicide galley fleet?Get serious, we can only do what is in our capacity to do and going to war with GWT or CGN right now is as useless as a radio to a deaf man. Who gives a f*ck if GCA survives with a city over there? Are we interested in killing GCA as a nation or taking over their land and eliminating their influence in this continent?

Uh, maybe you haven't thought of this but if GCA gets a city on the other Continent, then we can't finish them off any time soon. If we can't finish them off anytime soon, then War Weariness will drag us to the bottom.

All GCA has to do is stay at war with us and never accept peace. Yes, it may be a cheesy tactic by GCA to do this, but I would not count against it happening. If GCA accepts a city over there, they know that can royally screw us by not ever accepting peace with us. GCA already knows it will not win this game, but will, however, be content with helping us NOT to win.


Again, I'm not so much arguing in favor of what we may gain by sailing through, but rather I'm arguing our general position in the game. I believe we have leverage right now and should use that to our advantage. We need to use this to get GWT not to gift any cities to GCA.