04-11-2003 18:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree We need to use this to get GWT not to gift any cities to GCA.

And HOW exactly are we going to get GWT to not do that for GCA by spitting in their faces and sailing a boat through when they requested us not to? What school of diplomacy did you come from again? We're going to tell them that we will do something to piss them off that has no real benefit to us unless they agree to our demands? That's not only blackmail, that's stupid blackmail.

"Hey, if you don't help my rival in math class, I won't punch you in the face."



That is not how you conduct diplomacy, not here, not in the real world, not in any dimension in between.

	04-11-2003 18:52									#32
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Hmmm, maybe BF needs some time off.

E_T

	04-11-2003 19:56									#33
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I just posted this in the GCA War Weariness thread but if GWT giving GCA a city is a real concern maybe we should bring this up as a global question in the UN. (Not using this specific example.)

I believe most reasonable people would agree this is not in the spirit of the game.

	04-11-2003 20:09									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon And HOW exactly are we going to get GWT to not do that for GCA by spitting in their faces and sailing a boat through when they requested us not to?

Could you please READ what I wrote in it's entirety? :sheesh:

quote: 2. GWT gifts a city on the other Continent to GCA to keep them in the game. I think we should actually speak to CGN and GWT about this and let them know that any such act would be regarded as an act of war against Apolyton. In the end I'm willing to forget going through their territory if they pledge that they will not gift a city or otherwise help GCA out in our war against them.

quote: Again, I'm not so much arguing in favor of what we may gain by sailing through, but rather I'm arguing our general position in the game. I believe we have leverage right now and should use that to our advantage. We need to use this to get GWT not to gift any cities to GCA.

	04-11-2003 22:58									#35
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Could you please READ what I wrote in it's entirety? :sheesh: quote: 2. GWT gifts a city on the other Continent to GCA to keep them in the game. I think we should actually speak to CGN and GWT about this and let them know that any such act would be regarded as an act of war against Apolyton. In the end I'm willing to forget going through their territory if they pledge that they will not gift a city or otherwise help GCA out in our war against them. quote: Again, I'm not so much arguing in favor of what we may gain by sailing through, but rather I'm arguing our general position in the game. I believe we have leverage right now and should use that to our advantage. We need to use this to get GWT not to gift any cities to GCA.

Bigfree- you are operating on the basis that we have a right to go through their territory. You are effectively saying "I'll forget about doing something I shouldn't do anyhow and be nice if you'll do exactly what we tell you to do (in this case, stay out of the GCA war.)"

Think about that. Read my translation again.

"I won't punch you in the face" ( something I shouldn't do anyhow ) "if you won't help my rival in math class" ( and be nice if you do exactly what I tell you to do. )

Let's look at this from GWT's point of view:

"You guys have to agree to do what we want or we'll sail a boat through your waters."

If someone told us that, they'd get a very firm, very immediate "Jam it up your arse!" from us, and probably immediate planning with other civs to smash them for it. Fast forward: If we were at war with CFC, and GWT pulled this on us - I would DEFINITELY begin talks with CFC on dealing with GWT and putting our war aside.

Strong-arm politics works when you have the strong arm. WE DON'T.

What your proposal will do is to ASCERTAIN that GWT is going to give them a city - if only to spite us!

Wake up!

	04-11-2003 23:32									#36
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree MZ, you are wrong, we are in the drivers seat, you only don't see it....

I asked for evidence. I still haven't seen it. Other than diplomatically we are not economically #1 and GWT just showed it is anything but weak (and especially once they get Ansars). Hopefully we will be #1 soon but it's still gonna take awhile. We are NOT in the drivers seat right now, BF, and until we are we should not act so presumptiously.

quote: Besides, what kinds of "Carefully crafted diplomacy since February..." are you talking about? CFC already knows who we are and what we are about. CGN wants to be our friend in the worst way. GCA hates our guts and GWT is pissing us off. Tell me, what kind of 'Diplomacy Magic' are you working with to get any favors from any team besides CFC? Explain to me how we are not in the drivers seat if GWT and CGN continue their war, cold or not? Tell me why you think CGN and GWT's relations will get better?

Who said anything about diplomacy magic? We have been honest and straightfoward with every team, we have done fair trading, we have screwed almost everyone in some way or another without them realizing it (and in GCA's until it was too late for them). If anything it is our diplomatic position in the world that is the only aspect which is far and away the best. We have a good neighbor on one side, a neutral-but-friendly offshore power (CGN) and then a just recently pissed off civ (GWT) who is shooting themselves in the foot with their attitude. Tell me honestly, which civ is in a more favorable diplomatic position than us! And now you ask us to suddenly not give a hoot about rep.

Honestly BF, wake up and smell the incense, demo games cannot be played so recklessly as you are advocating.

quote: Again, I'm not so much arguing in favor of what we may gain by sailing through, but rather I'm arguing our general position in the game. I believe we have leverage right now and should use that to our advantage. We need to use this to get GWT not to gift any cities to GCA.

Leverage doesn't mean arm twisting. And arm twisting is stupid when the arm is too strong to twist. Tell me, what will you do if GWT just laughs in our face when we threaten them like you say? Or even worse, when we declare war on them like you said we should so if they refuse?

	05-11-2003 01:50									#37
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Interesting discussion this thread.
I agree that BigFree's post on the diplomacy/boat issue is a little strange. (no offense )

	05-11-2003 12:13									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Bigfree- you are operating on the basis that we have a right to go through their territory. You are effectively saying "I'll forget about doing something I shouldn't do anyhow and be nice if you'll do exactly what we tell you to do (in this case, stay out of the GCA war.)"

I nowhere said we had the right to go through. What I have been saying all along, until I came up with reasons against it myself, that we should just go ahead through because we have nothing to lose from GWT. GWT has given us nothing. We had a proposed tech trade deal, but they have refused to anser us on many occasions. Some on this team may believe that we do have a deal with GWT, but the fact is that we don't.

All of MZ's famous diplomacy has got us squat with GWT. They have stonewalled us from the very begining and continue to do so now. What makes anyone think that we will get anything at all in the future from these standoffish people?

The reason for not going through their territory has already been noted by me earlier in this thread when I suggested that GWT might gift a city to GCA. Since we want to prevent that, then not intentionally provoking GWT is best for now.

Again, let me state this: GWT has very little to offer us. What they do have to offer isn't being offered at all. They have shown no signs of wanting to trade amicably or otherwise. This is almost the sole reason I had even suggested that we ignore their demand to not sail through their waters. The other being that we may find a shorter route (maybe only one turn at sea) to our own Continent on the other side of theirs. I'm not sure how likely that is, but It is possible.



MZ: I'm wreckless?! Whatever my friend. You use words with much meaning, however they bear little weight when you use them unjustly. Just because I'm of the opinion that GWT not only has little to offer us, but also feel that they will never offer us anything in the 'fair' range as far as deals go, does'nt mean that I don't know what's going on and how to play the game within a game. If GWT wanted to play ball with us, they would have by now. We will not lose this game because GWT won't trade with us. Not like we have any say so in the matter anyhow. We have tried to egt them to talk to us about trading. Do they respond positively to those requests? No, they do not. Why do you think GWT will help us win this game? What can or will they do for us?

I'm of the opinion that GWT and GCA are already in league with each other. That being the case, I feel that being 'friendly' to GWT does us absolutely no good; it may even hurt us in CGN's eyes)

CGN and GWT are at war, regardless of this cease fire. We will have to eventually choose a side. Playing up to both of them won't work for long; in fact, GWT already suspects this and that is the likely reason they are behaving as such towards us.

I do not trust GWT. I do not like GWT because I cannot trust them.

	05-11-2003 12:41									#39
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I nowhere said we had the right to go through. What I have been saying all along, until I came up with reasons against it myself, that we should just go ahead through because we have nothing to lose from GWT. GWT has given us nothing. We had a proposed tech trade deal, but they have refused to anser us on many occasions. Some on this team may believe that we do have a deal with GWT, but the fact is that we don't.

so now you are agreeing that it's a bad idea?

quote: All of MZ's famous diplomacy has got us squat with GWT. They have stonewalled us from the very begining and continue to do so now. What makes anyone think that we will get anything at all in the future from these standoffish people?

They have stonewalled everyone if what you are referring to is their less than prompt replies (just ask mongoose and miccofl). If you are referring to their reasons for not being friendly to us as of late it's because of 2 things:

1) Our breaking the NAP with GCA. This is something the majority of the team thought necessary, not just a FAM decision. I warned about the consequences and YOU vehemetly said it would never come back to haunt us. Har har, it did.

2) We sailed a galley into their waters without permission. FAM was never consulted. Don't blame this on our "diplomacy" since none of us would have ever allowed this.

quote: Again, let me state this: GWT has very little to offer us. What they do have to offer isn't being offered at all. They have shown no signs of wanting to trade amicably or otherwise. This is almost the sole reason I had even suggested that we ignore their demand to not sail through their waters. The other being that we may find a shorter route (maybe only one turn at sea) to our own Continent on the other side of theirs. I'm not sure how likely that is, but It is possible.

Why this attitude? Why give up and just say GWT will never be friendly and never trade with us bla bla bla? Why not say, gee, let's do something to improve relations with them. Hell, we're all open for ideas, instead about b*tching about what a bunch of SOBs they are, why not think of things to leech from them? I still think that GWT has a lot to offer us if we wise up and keep up with a good attitude towards the other civs.

quote: I'm of the opinion that GWT and GCA are already in league with each other. That being the case, I feel that being 'friendly' to GWT does us absolutely no good; it may even hurt us in CGN's eyes) CGN and GWT are at war, regardless of this cease fire. We will have to eventually choose a side. Playing up to both of them won't work for long; in fact, GWT already suspects this and that is the likely reason they are behaving as such towards us. I do not trust GWT. I do not like GWT because I cannot trust them.

And please tell me the virtues of choosing sides right now when we don't even know who will prevail over there? My main gripe with your arguments is that you are already limiting yourself to situations which haven't yet happened, and are nowhere near happening. I'm not discarding those possibilities but what's best for us is not to draw a line in the sand and stick to a plan, we must be open to changes in the situation and adapt accordingly. I'm surprised that seeing how things have quickly changed in the ISDG and the PTWDG, you advocate such a strict line of policy when our best assest has been and should always be our flexibility.

	05-11-2003 12:54									#40
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GWT has set it's policy. APO did nothing so aggregious against GCA that is is beyond GWT to understand. GWT wants to see this in a certain light and they will continue to do so. No matter what we do, GWT will be this way towards us because they realize, like I do, that we are in the drivers seat becasue of our "Strong" position on this continent. They know that we can become dominant while they fight with CGN. Are we dominant yet? No. But we will be, I promise that.

I am only saying it is a bad idea, for now, based upon the fact that I don't want GCA to be gifted a city by GWT.

Why my attitude? Ask GWT the same. I wonder if their FAM is 'working' hard to get us in their favor.....please

quote: Hell, we're all open for ideas, instead about b*tching about what a bunch of SOBs they are, why not think of things to leech from them? I still think that GWT has a lot to offer us if we wise up and keep up with a good attitude towards the other civs.

So, what are your ideas then?


Why aren't you answering my questions? What does GWT have to offer us? How will they help us win this game? I'll give you a hint...they will help us by fighting with C_N. (just fill in the blank)

	05-11-2003 19:29									#41
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GWT does have things to offer us (other than merely existing and being a check against the power of CGN): technology trades in the future, for instance. Possible luxury trades in the more distant future.

It is clear GWT is difficult to deal with. It's possible that you're right, and we will never get anywhere with them. EVEN IF THAT WERE THE CASE, however (which I do not concede), deliberately antagonizing them is not a smart move.

-Arrian

	05-11-2003 22:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree GWT has set it's policy. APO did nothing so aggregious against GCA that is is beyond GWT to understand. GWT wants to see this in a certain light and they will continue to do so.

I see you have become a member of GWT's FAM to acertain that. So what if they have "set" their policy? We do the same and then change it when circumstances change. That's what flexibility is. You cannot predict the future and guess at how GWT will treat us in 50 turns because so many things can change.

quote: No matter what we do, GWT will be this way towards us because they realize, like I do, that we are in the drivers seat becasue of our "Strong" position on this continent. They know that we can become dominant while they fight with CGN. Are we dominant yet? No. But we will be, I promise that.

Our "strong" position on this continent means crap since no country in each side can't directly influence events abroad. That will come unit navigation. In the meantime both GWT and CGN are economically superior to us, and had a notable tech lead until we managed to pull the miraculous free-tech deal with CDG. Ceteris paribus, and until we exploit GCA's lands and build a FP expect each of the other two giants to still be superior to us.

Precisely by keeping CFC alive for the near future, we assure that GWT and CGN don't look as threatened by us as they would if we gobbled up the entire continent. Look at the map, Apo + GCA is just barely the size of GWT or CGN. Let them happilly kill each other while we build and THEN we can say we are in the driver's seat.

quote: I am only saying it is a bad idea, for now, based upon the fact that I don't want GCA to be gifted a city by GWT. Why my attitude? Ask GWT the same. I wonder if their FAM is 'working' hard to get us in their favor.....please So, what are your ideas then? Why aren't you answering my questions? What does GWT have to offer us? How will they help us win this game? I'll give you a hint...they will help us by fighting with C_N. (just fill in the blank)

GWT has techs to offers, still has an undiscovered map which we may well trade since ours is more complete, and what is most importantly, is a check against CGN getting too powerful. How we manage the CGN-GWT relationship might well be the most difficult diplomatic task ever to face us. You expect me to not give a damn and throw in the garbage the possibilities of balancing out? I'm not saying we will be successful (as unlike you I do not affirm things before they happen) but we sure as hell will die trying. What you are proposing is that we simply give up before even giving the possibility a chance just because of something you THINK will happpen.

My ideas? There is no evil plan here, no brilliant diplomatic miracle. It is simply to attempt to mend things with them enough so that they feel confident enough in tech trading with us again. Let's see how this works, if anyone has any brilliant ideas go ahead and propose them, I'm all ears. Just don't do the two things you have been doing so far this thread:

1) affirming things that haven't happened yet and basing policy on such assumptions.

2) affirming how other people and teams think just because you want them to behave a certain way.

3) deliberately pursing a policy of hostility towards a team when all possibilities of amending relationships have not yet been even remotely exhausted.

	06-11-2003 00:05									#43
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I'm not affirming anything that GWT has not already shown us. Show me where you see it differently given the current situation and what GWT has done in the past. Diplomacy and this game is about making educated guesses. Nothing is a certainty; but you must be willing to gamble at certain times. I'm not saying we should decalre war on GWT. I am saying I THINK that GWT will not help us one bit now or in the future. After we have finished of GCA, GWT will likely go after CFC to get them to side against us. GWT knows that if the relations are good between CFC and APO and that if GWT and CGN continues the cold war; then APO has the decided advantage. In that scenario, who trades with GWT? Not anyone that I can see. GWT, for whatever reason, choose the wrong side in the GCA/APO conflict. Yes, we broke the NAP. But, we also adhered to an agreement with CDG at the same time protecting CFC, our ally. GWT is going to act and play in a manner that will help them win. If that means calling APO 'treaty breakers', then they will. If it was in GWT's best interest to trade with us or otherwise coordinate actions with us, then they would do that regardless of what happened between us and GCA. GTW will be looking out for themselves. Hiding behind what they may say is a bad reputation is just an excuse to act in a way they were going to act anyways.

The tech deal we offered them favors us mostly. There's not a lot we can do about that because there are only so many resaerch paths to take. If there were an amicable solution to a tech trade, that felt equal to or slightly in favor of GWT, then they would pull the trigger on it.

You are saying they are acting in this fashion because of our rep. I'm saying GWT would act this way reagrdless because of circumstances that have nothing to do with our rep.

If I have a hostile attitude towards GWT, then that is because they have been showing the same to us. Friendship is a two way street. We have shown GWT a highway; they have yet to come forward with a dirt road. Every major conflict in this world is settled through military action. Diplomacy has settled very few things and usaully only delays the inevitable. WHEN Diplomacy does work, it's usually because the guys with the bigger guns say so!

I believe that CGN and GWT will manage to keep themselves in mediocrity with little help from us.

	06-11-2003 02:57									#44
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quote: You are saying they are acting in this fashion because of our rep. I'm saying GWT would act this way reagrdless because of circumstances that have nothing to do with our rep.

Gee, let's see, before the rep hit and galley intrusion we had made tech deals, had a nice little chat with them and all went well. So, what makes you think they suddenly out of the blue OPENLY state they distrust us? Give me just ONE SINGLE piece of evidence to prove what you are claiming. Tell me what are the "circumstances" which you claim made them change their attitude?

quote: If I have a hostile attitude towards GWT, then that is because they have been showing the same to us. Friendship is a two way street. We have shown GWT a highway; they have yet to come forward with a dirt road. Every major conflict in this world is settled through military action. Diplomacy has settled very few things and usaully only delays the inevitable. WHEN Diplomacy does work, it's usually because the guys with the bigger guns say so!

Maybe that's why you keep getting ganged up in PBEMs.

Diplomacy is a means not an end. Diplomacy means that when you go to war you go to war under the most favorable circumstances. Getting ready for war is absolutely worth sh*t if everyone else teams up and kicks your ass. Why would such a thing occur?, because you failed to organize other parties in such a way as to make them sympathize with your cause (or at least fool them long enough).

Diplomacy in PBEMs and demo games is a game-winner. Because no matter how strong you are, it is most likely that a combination of other civs will be mightier than you, and if you don't manage to get them to target someone else, you're dead. What would GoW be without ND? What would RP be without GS? The military situation in that game is only possible because of the diplomacy that occured. RP got busted because of bad diplomacy (pissing off GoW and ND in the early game) and is now alive becuase of good dipomacy (getting GS on its side).

So many countless examples and you still don't get it. You are shooting yourself in the foot if you keep saying diplomacy is worthless when it's pretty much just you defending that idea. Trust me, I can think of many better things to do with my spare time than writting PMs to other teams and spending hours chatting especially if people think all of this is for naught.

	06-11-2003 12:15									#45
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WTF are you talking about MZ?

Where do I ever say that Diplomacy is not an important part of the game? You are really pissing me off now! I said GWT is not in a postion to hurt us and that Diplomacy with them is goign to get us virtually nill. How does that translate into "Diplomacy is for the birds."?

When you argue with me, don't go off on some random tangent. Stick to the subject at hand; which is how GWT may help us win or lose this game. I will not restate my earlier points because you have not adequately addressed any of them.

To quote a rather obnoxious Poly poster...

Please stay on topic.....

Have a nice day.

	06-11-2003 12:30									#46
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Every major conflict in this world is settled through military action. Diplomacy has settled very few things and usaully only delays the inevitable. WHEN Diplomacy does work, it's usually because the guys with the bigger guns say so!

nuff said.

	06-11-2003 12:35									#47
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Where does it say that Diplomacy, without a conflict going on, is not useful?

I did not say Diplomacy is not useful ever. I believe diplomacy with CGN will help us win this game and to a certain extent with CFC.

Are you trying to tell me that Diplomacy isn't a tool more suited to a more powerful force than a weaker one?

	06-11-2003 12:36									#48
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Man... this thread is rediculous...

On another note, this debate bears a disturbing similarity to the discussion between RP Team and GoW regarding an equally silly right of passage issue in the early stages of the PTWDG.

I think we should learn our collective GoW-RP lesson for that utter insanity...

Play nice. I agree with MZ, there's absolutely nothing to be gained by provoking ND, even if their demands here are perhaps unreasonable. Ultimately, goading them over something so horrendously petty as this into potentially damaging a better chance at long-term cooperation seems hopelessly dumb.

If they're going to put up a fuss about us sailing through their territory, fine. We have exceedingly little to gain even if we pay the price of further pissing them off. I really see no point in pushing it further.

	06-11-2003 12:41									#49
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Yep, this thread IS totally ridiculious and the last page has been mostly a run-off discussion between BF and myself. Honestly I don't even see why this thread was even started since the issue was settled before but oh well.

I suggest if people disagree on the way the FAM is dealing with GWT or plans to deal with them, it be discussed in the GWT forum or polls started to gauge the team's feelings as a whole.

	06-11-2003 15:45									#50
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Sorry I have not been in this discussion very much, and I see nye has not been here either.

I am still unconvinced of any need to go through GWT's territory right now. There is undiscovered land, and we would manage to pin down exactly which luxes they have, and whether they are keeping any Iron/Horses spare in case something is exhausted. But that is all. It is, in effect, needlessly annoying GWT.

On the other hand, what do we have to gain from GWT? BF is right - nothing, or next to nothing. That is the situation right now. But right now is an interesting situation, with wars and diplomatic difficulties abounding. What's to say that GWT will not become friends, or at least start to cooperate in the future? It is unlikely given their past behaviour, granted, but since when is the past any indication of the future?

We will either get the rights to travel through their territory with patient diplomacy, or we will get their map, or we will just wait until Navigation/Magnetism. It is of very little importance. That Galley will allow us to keep an eye on GWT/CGN assaults at their front line, which may be of far greater interest than travelling north. This is no game-breaking argument either, so the heated debates are really quite unnecessary.

MZ - a lot of what you are saying sounds very confrontational to me - how do you intend to convince BF of your point if you are needlessly provoking him?

BF - if you have some reason that we must go through GWT's waters NOW (an advantage we may lose if we wait) or have good cause to suspect it will reveal important information in their lands, let us know, because from what I can see there is nearly nothing.

I do not like that teammembers are so intensely arguing like this. Such a discussion will not help our team or each other. And I also remind everyone that sometimes decisions will be made and actions will be taken that not everyone agrees with - it has happened before to me and it will certainly happen in this case, with so many strong opinions. When the decision is finally taken please remember this, and try, as I try, to deal with it and to get on with the business of looking out for the team and the team's democratic wishes.

Thank you.

	06-11-2003 21:37									#51
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We could see if there is a land mass to the east of PoA. It would entail some risk, but there would be huts there, If we find it.

E_T

	06-11-2003 23:24									#52
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I've looked at the arguements on both sides and though there is a possibility of gain by going through GWT waters the risk of political storms is too severe.

We must avoid 2 things if we are to be sucessful in this war.
1) GWT sending units(not a major threat but you never know)
2) GWT gifting cities to GCA. (the big threat)

How do we avoid these pitfalls. It is actually fairly straightforward. We do not antagonize GWT and we also make sure that they fear to antagonize us. GWT does not want our intervention in their war and we really don't want their intervention in our war.

This is our bargaining chip and one we must use. Yes, we can not make a decisive difference in the other continent's war, but with 2 so evenly matched foes we can be the pebble that tips the scale. Additionally, when GCA is destroyed on our continent, we will have many units just sitting around. GWT knows this and does not relish the thought of us using any of these units on them. Perhaps a non-intervention agreement in the internal affairs of the other continent is in order(20 turns or so).

Perhaps we can also turn around and tell GWT that we will make no atatempt for that other possible landmass(they must have the same ideas) to get such an agreement or perhaps we can go the other way by putting a naval rop into the treaty.

Either way we go, it is important to remember the following; even though we currently do not have good relations with GWT, it doesn't mean this will always be the case. As time goes by and new people take leadership positions in both teams it is possible we can have a productive future. Lets not throw out that possibility in the name of a possible marginal(but important) gain.

One last word, I call upon our team to keep arguements repsectful. Remember we are on the same team and have the same goal, it is only the paths we take toward that goal that differ.

Aggie

	06-11-2003 23:28									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt MZ - a lot of what you are saying sounds very confrontational to me - how do you intend to convince BF of your point if you are needlessly provoking him?

No matter what I say, he won't be convinced but being these public threads I hope that by this discussion the rest of the teams can base their preferences on the side which was more convincing to them. Of course I agree that there's a limit, and this limit has now been passed. The arguments are on the table, let everybody else decide.

And I ain't the only one being confrontational: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...052#post2465052 . Comments like that about me or anyone else are totally uncalled for when I hadn't even opened my mouth yet.

But oh well, I give up. No need to make things worse. The FAM shall continue with its present policy towards GWT until the team decides on a different course.

	07-11-2003 00:04									#54
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You have opened your mouth plenty in chat, don't proclaim to be all innocent now....

And that's all I have to say about that.

	07-11-2003 01:45									#55
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MZ, BF: behave! Don't make Uncle Zargon come in with his whuppin' stick! Can't we all just get along and focus on kicking GCA's ass