03-11-2003 18:34									#1
	Culture: thoughts Increase the size of your Attachments

Certainly there is something interesting to the Civ3 concept.

What are other peoples thoughts on the subject? Would culture add important elements to CtP2?

	03-11-2003 19:08									#2
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For those that dont now, in civ3 culture is gained by wonders and improvements that add per turn and add up per city to increase the borders of the city. The sum of all city culture points is also added up for a cultural value thatcan assist in "culture flipping" cities. where a city joins yours because of high culture. There is also a culture victory if a city reaches a high set number of culture points.


I think the Civ3 system is so-so. Border expansion is a different topic, i dont like the culture way or ctp2's population size. I'd rather it be by improvements like govt centers or communications, something that emphasizes control.

As for culture points, a culture victory is ok. I like the idea of options besides military conquest, so a culture victory would be cool, but a little different though, I'd have to see what ideas are on it.

I WOULD like to see something like culture points being used like "experience points" in old adventure games. Something that could be used to vary your civ. And slightly have the traits concept for Civ3.

It would be almost a secondary tech tree but adds bonuses. So for llike 100 culture points it allows infantry a better attack (say for militaristic) or gold bonus on trade for commercial. This may branch out into unique small wonders, units, or certain improvements.

I know the idea of choosing your civilization's cultural values are unrealistic to a degree, some might want this randomized. Certain AI could have cultural preferences like the British wanting to be seafaring, mongols militaristic. But it would be fun to develop a new civilization with unique cultural attrbutes to differentiate the nations.

I dont think it should go so far as choosing which cultural group like euro, asian, etc though

Just a suggestion...

	03-11-2003 20:20									#3
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I don't think that there is ANYTHING broken about CtP2's city expansion via population. Its completely intuitive, a more populous city gathers resources from a wider area. Makes perfect sense. In fact, I think its one of the big advantages of CtP2 over Civ3.

Culture flipping, though... thoughts?

	03-11-2003 20:25									#4
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quote: Originally posted by E I know the idea of choosing your civilization's cultural values are unrealistic to a degree, some might want this randomized. Certain AI could have cultural preferences like the British wanting to be seafaring, mongols militaristic. But it would be fun to develop a new civilization with unique cultural attrbutes to differentiate the nations.

I would give the British a preference for seafaring are priory. The didn't choose to like seafaring, because it is so cool. It was so important for them because they are sitting on an island. So invironment influence made them to seafarers.

-Martin

	03-11-2003 20:29									#5
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Right. I already mentioned having an AI that reacted to environmental situations. Its done in the current AI, but could be much more effective. I don't know bonus attributes are necessary. Civ isn't a roleplay game, or RTS.

	03-11-2003 20:46									#6
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins I don't think that there is ANYTHING broken about CtP2's city expansion via population. Its completely intuitive, a more populous city gathers resources from a wider area. Makes perfect sense. In fact, I think its one of the big advantages of CtP2 over Civ3. Culture flipping, though... thoughts?

I think the expansion by puplation is best represent by building more cities or by the city expansion mod. But borders arent a factor of population, it comes from claiming and defending territory. Hong Kong has a huge population but its size is small. Canada is bigger than the US but has 1/10th the population. So thats why I dont like the pop border thing.


Culture flipping...its add a nice peaceful way to expand but civ3 is bad at it I think, because sometimes it flips multiple times, and when you reject it it just stays as part of the old civ. If we have culture flipping with secession that would be cooler (although ctp2 does it somewhat, we need to have a set path of successive names like americans from the english etc.)

	03-11-2003 20:51									#7
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More cities are just that. More cities.

The city expansion mod needs space to expand into, and is activated by population, just as regular city expansion is.

	03-11-2003 21:05									#8
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It is also dependent on religion you would not get a roman city to switch to a Incan city because they have different religions

However you would produce variant units to better cope with the local conditions

	04-11-2003 03:03									#9
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I'll say this once, and once only:

Culture, the way it is in Civ3, is so unbalanced, design-faulty and ridiculous, that it was THE #1 REASON I shelved the game. How in the hell is a computer game supposed to simulate the rise and fall of culture of history, in 1000 turns? It just simply doesn't work.

	04-11-2003 05:15									#10
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I like the idea of border (not city radius) extention. It makes sense that certain cities exert more influence on their surroundings than others, so that's a good idea if you ask me. However, it doesn't necessarily have to be modelled through culture. In reality, it's a factor of military/political/religious power, size, age, marvel. It could be modelled by culture, but just as easily by other things, in my opinion.

Like E, I like having alternative victory routes, so the cultural victory sounds great to me. However, as it's implemented in Civ3, you don't get much satisfaction from it. The only way to achieve it is by being miles ahead of the competition, so if you win it wasn't after a close contest. If you beat your opponent to a science victory by a mere turn or two, or if you were elected leader of the world in the UN by only a few votes difference, it won't feel like a cop-out victory. The culture victory always does. So if we're gonna copy it, it should be made more interesting to achieve.

I would like there to be distinct differences between civs, so that your opponents aren't just collections of city names. It would be nice if you could identify yourself with the civ you're playing with, and if you could curse your opponent for being an arrogant French frog or a power-hungry American. So I certainly like to see different AIs with different approaches to strategy (which certainly should be guided mostly by environment, but that doesn't prohibit the Mongols from being aggressive, the Dutch from focussing on commerce and diplomacy and the Greeks from aiming for science victory). Some ways to making civs more unique would certainly be welcome, but cultural properties (Commercial, Religious, etc) are only one way of accomplishing this.

As for city flipping, I like having a peaceful way of expanding your empire, but it should probably be less arbitrary, avoiding a city from flipping back and forth several times. For one thing, a city shouldn't flip unless it can be said with reasonable certainty that it won't flip back anytime soon. And flipping doesn't necessarily have to be determined by culture.

I haven't formulated my thoughts on culture as I have for resources. It might be worth copying the Civ3 system and making some modifications, it might be a good idea to design a completely new system or it might be best to leave out altogether but implement it's betst features in a non-cultural form.

	04-11-2003 15:15									#11
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what about the old civ 2 way of bribing a city to flip on to your side

	04-11-2003 15:54									#12
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc what about the old civ 2 way of bribing a city to flip on to your side

That was to easy............All you needed where 20 diplomats and that was all..........


Or we would need to increase the price, but again. Money comes to easy..........

	04-11-2003 18:15									#13
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I would not change the way city borders are increasing in CtP2, this is as far as I am concerned one of the great features of the game.

Culture flipping is a bit tricky to implement, I don't think any city in history has changed its allegiance by itself without an external pressure or an increasing number of settlers coming from a close kingdom and bringing some changes with them. Whatever the case, the flipping should not be as sudden as it is in Civ3, it should be progressive and the player should be warned ahead of time that something is going wrong.

I would implement it this way: an increasing number of discontents (the reason being displayed in the city manager) ending in a revolution during which the city sides with the civilization influencing it.

As far as I am concerned I would link culture with governments (Republic, Democracy), trade with the city, wonders and technological achievements rather than with buildings though some of them could help. It is a matter of "Prestige".

In the same spirit, the cultural influence should vary with the government and military strength of the influenced nation...

	04-11-2003 18:36									#14
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culture can be associated with buildings rather then governments, or type of government.

Just think of this thing called Lollywood Hollywood. This is, sad to say, also a part of culture.

Take the jeans, similar.

Whatever you take, it is not related really to the government, but to the sociaty behind it. Centre piece for Muslims would be like Mecca. But again nothing to do with governments.

(Before people complain one is relgious the other one isn't, let's take than the Vatican with Micheangelo's chapel.......).

All part of culture...........

Prestige: THAT is another point...........

	04-11-2003 19:00									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch culture can be associated with buildings rather then governments, or type of government.

quote: Just think of this thing called Lollywood Hollywood.

Wonder...

quote: Take the jeans, similar.

Trade...

quote: Whatever you take, it is not related really to the government, but to the sociaty behind it. Centre piece for Muslims would be like Mecca. But again nothing to do with governments.

Would you deny the influence of the Greek and Roman republics on our history?

The spread of fascism throughout Europe between the two world wars had much to do with the successes of the German and Italian governments as they were perceived by the people of this time.

quote: Before people complain one is relgious the other one isn't, let's take than the Vatican with Micheangelo's chapel.......).

These are wonders...

quote: All part of culture...........

I agree though.

quote: Prestige: THAT is another point...........

I would say THAT IS the point...

	04-11-2003 19:36									#16
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Another plug for culture traits and why it would be great for the game. Locutus mentioned them, and I know there is some rejection. But I think it will be enhancing. as ist stands now, every game, modded or not, the opposing civ many have varying levels of aggression but if you invade and encounter some of their forces of knights or what not. As the human you know how to deal with it.

But if you invade and findthe Chinese have a defense bonus in cities and then you are attacked by there ally the americans that have a cavalry bonus. You have to re-think your unit packages when fighting each side instead of sending in the same army type. For instance, if they have strong cities you'll have to put more emphasis or artillery, or better cav you need more pikemen this ends up effectiving your building and tech planning to counter these changing threats.

THis could also applyto more features like science. If the greeks have a scientific you mayhave to fight them first before they get ahead of you.

If we come up with a good set of bonuses that are available with techs and "bought" with a culture points system or something. It will vary each game, making each conquest a unique battle plan instead of just a unique wayt o target each city.

	04-11-2003 19:43									#17
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc what about the old civ 2 way of bribing a city to flip on to your side

That is already in the game you just need a wonder then the city flips to your side, if noone owns this wonder the city form a new civilisation or become Barbarian. So you see already in the game just a little bit more complicated.

-Martin

	04-11-2003 20:17									#18
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yes but it happens late on

and it does not help for the civ without the wonder

	04-11-2003 20:25									#19
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My thoughts exactly.

I do like Tamerlins idea of a disparity in a close city (a nearby city being far more magnificent AND prosperous too,) then that could cause rising discontent, which could lead to an existing game construct of resolution. Except I think that it should flip to either that civ OR a new civ, if that civ is incompatible. (Different government type, perhaps?)

	04-11-2003 20:26									#20
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There should also be some method of delay and inertia, so it can't frequently flip back and forth.

	04-11-2003 20:42									#21
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The main reason I don't like it:

Abuse from the human player!

Or better to say: I can't see the AI (would) handling it properly

So, why shall we then bother bringing it in.......

	04-11-2003 20:56									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch Abuse from the human player!

I will admit that when I found out the civ3 diplomat could flip citys it did kind of kill the game for my military I was a crooked civ often bribing empires to join me

	04-11-2003 20:59									#23
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It's ok for fun, I did the same

Lovely times.......just get a bunch of diplomats and by the way through their empire .

IIRC only if the enemy was Democracy it didn't work.......

But I don't really want to see such a serious drawback back in the game again.

	04-11-2003 21:08									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins There should also be some method of delay and inertia, so it can't frequently flip back and forth.

I agree, when a city flips the culture discontent setting should be reset and any change, if any, should be progressive again.

In the same spirit there should be a chance that some of the military units that were garrisoned in the city also side with the rebels and become new units of the receiving empire.