04-11-2003 01:31									#31
	Remove this text

lord of the mark, What anti-semitic actions? What anti-Israel rhetorics does Europe use?

Again and again the same mistake. We don't have any common practice here in Europe. You see what you want to see. Israels conflict with Palestinian terror groups gets whole lots of media time here.
It looks like you get huge masses of anti-european media time, or how euros are so anti-semitic comparing to any other parts of the world. But I guess that is because we are all brainwashed. And what's that? How does Europe brainwash itself? Is there a conspiracy somewhere that is behind this? Accusations, used to blame the whole europe as one. That anti-europeanism in my book, then. I know there are lots of euros that blame Israel for this and that and throw the accusations all the time, but if that makes them anti-semitic, surely the ones doing the same to euros are also anti-europeans.

Not a single Jew is in danger in my country. There has been no attacks in here. We don't boycott Israeli products here. We do have a jackass for foreign minister for sure, but our official policy towards Israel is NOT anti-israel in any damn way. So, what do you use to justify calling us anti-semites all the time and that's somehow politically correct?

What about Norway? What about Portugal? What about Spain? What about UK? Everyone should STOP ALWAYS LUMPING THE WHOLE EUROPE AS ONE. EVERYONE SHOULD REALLY REMEMBER IT THE NEXT WEEK TOO, because it seems like it's always forgotten. There are lots of countries in Europe that are not anti-semitic even by these definitions. And blame the whole europe for the darker times? As again, it said europe is falling for the dark ages if this continues. We never had dark ages. We fought SU. So, if that's not anti-european I don't know what is? Accusations.

So, next time I read these, I'd be happy if they focused on the ones that are anti-semitic, and try to exclude those, who have nothing to do with it. Because that's the right thing to do.

	04-11-2003 01:35									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "I am Jew. I am NOT and never have been a citizen of the USSR or any of its successor states. How, pray tell, do I have an obligation for the crimes of the Soviet Union that is in any way analogous to the obligation that a German CITIZEN has for the actions of the German state?" I'm not sure that's a good way t put it. Under those terms, as an Austrian citizen, why should I be in any way responsible for the actions of the German state? And Austria isn't a german successor state either.... maybe a bit too formal. What it comes down to and what I meant: I'm not guilty of anything by virtue of nationality - and that's what national guilt implies. That my nation has a responsibility or an obligation, fine. If my grandfather stole your grandfather's house, I'm not guilty of theft, but I still should return it.

austria isnt treated legally as a German successor state, just as Ukraine is not considered a USSR successor state. This is somewhat arbitrary. In particular post WW2 Austria was not treated as in any way responsible for the crimes of the Nazi regime, though during 1938-1945 Austrians were German citizens equal with other Germans, and there was less resistance in Austria then there was in Prussia. However given cold war conditions, as well as the allied determination to consider Austria independent, it was in no power's interest to consider Austria as a German successor state.


To refine what you have said slightly, its not as if im holding property my grandfather stole. Its as if my grandfather committed what in the common law we call a "tort" he did a wrong for which it possible to sue for damages. As his heir, who received his estate, I am obliged to repay. In some cases the nature of the inheritance among multiple heirs may make that somewhat more complex.

	04-11-2003 01:39									#33
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Many are saying that anti-semitism is widespread in Europe, and are basing this not only on Anti-semitic actions, but on Anti-israel rhetoric, which goes beyond criticisms of Israeli policies to rhetorical tropes that strike many Jews, and many non-Jewish Americans, as anti-semitic.

And who is saying that? How far are those comments self-serving, when we talk say about some lobby groups?

Those radical zionist groups have turned "antisemitic" to mean "critical of Israel". They think that will discredit criticism of Israel. It worked in the US. It will not work in Europe. The problem is that it creates a blur between actual, classic antisemites and newspeak antisemites.

A few years ago, I would have been insulted by being called an antisemite. Now the term has been so overused that I don't give a flying **** about it.

	04-11-2003 01:43									#34
	Inflate your Upload Space

"This is somewhat arbitrary."

Which was exactly the point.

"Its as if my grandfather committed what in the common law we call a "tort" he did a wrong for which it possible to sue for damages."

Doesn't matter whether it's compensation or restitution, with the difference that certain torts are personal in nature and active legitimacy can't be inherited. But that's too formal too.

	04-11-2003 01:43									#35
	Support Apolyton

And I know Europe is full of BS most of the times. I don't like it myself most times, I want to get out of here!

But still, I can't help but take it personally sometimes, that I've been accused of something I'm not guilty of. So I think I have the right to be angry about it sometimes.

	04-11-2003 01:45									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Pekka lord of the mark, What anti-semitic actions? What anti-Israel rhetorics does Europe use? Again and again the same mistake. We don't have any common practice here in Europe. You see what you want to see. Israels conflict with Palestinian terror groups gets whole lots of media time here. It looks like you get huge masses of anti-european media time, or how euros are so anti-semitic comparing to any other parts of the world. But I guess that is because we are all brainwashed. And what's that? How does Europe brainwash itself? Is there a conspiracy somewhere that is behind this? Accusations, used to blame the whole europe as one. That anti-europeanism in my book, then. I know there are lots of euros that blame Israel for this and that and throw the accusations all the time, but if that makes them anti-semitic, surely the ones doing the same to euros are also anti-europeans. Not a single Jew is in danger in my country. There has been no attacks in here. We don't boycott Israeli products here. We do have a jackass for foreign minister for sure, but our official policy towards Israel is NOT anti-israel in any damn way. So, what do you use to justify calling us anti-semites all the time and that's somehow politically correct? What about Norway? What about Portugal? What about Spain? What about UK? Everyone should STOP ALWAYS LUMPING THE WHOLE EUROPE AS ONE. EVERYONE SHOULD REALLY REMEMBER IT THE NEXT WEEK TOO, because it seems like it's always forgotten. There are lots of countries in Europe that are not anti-semitic even by these definitions. And blame the whole europe for the darker times? As again, it said europe is falling for the dark ages if this continues. We never had dark ages. We fought SU. So, if that's not anti-european I don't know what is? Accusations. So, next time I read these, I'd be happy if they focused on the ones that are anti-semitic, and try to exclude those, who have nothing to do with it. Because that's the right thing to do.

yeah, well - when some said that "europe" opposed US policy on Iraq, it was Donald Rumsfeld who tried to distinguish among Europeans. He has yet to live that down. Should I have said France and Belgium, and to a lesser extent Britain and Germany, oh, and definitely Ireland, and so forth and so on? "europeans" dont seem to take kindly to Americans drawing such distinctions. They seem to take it us trying to meddle, and seperate an emerging European identity.

Im sorry - i didnt mean to imply that Helsinki has as many antisemitic incidents as Paris, or that that the Finnish FM is like the Belgian, or that Finland has any newspapers are like the (UK) Independent.

However given that europe, Finland included, is trying to form an international confederation, that, if not a super state, seems close to it, I hardly think its bigoted to make statements about trends across the continent. Would it be anti_american for a european to point out that the US has many people on death row, when in fact many states dont have the death penalty? If you wish to be part of a united Europe, than what happens in Paris, and Brussels and London is also yours, just as what happens in Wyoming and Mississippi is also mine.

If europeans DONT feel responsible for what happens in each others states, then the future of this federal thing will be neither long nor good.

	04-11-2003 01:45									#37
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: hmmm... the early Bolsheviks forced the resettlement of millions, some on purely ethnic grounds (Tartars, Cossacks) and starved to death or outright killed millions of others... including entire families.

the early bolsheviks didn't kill in a well-thought out manner millions of people.

quote: The tenets of Communism attracted many educated, secular Jews, as it attracted many other urban yet underrepresented people.

what's your point? Noone claims that whoever commited atrocities should go unpunished. OTOH, this has nothing to do with being jews.

quote: It is also ignorant to believe that Jews are the only victims of historical wrongs, including genocide acts or incapable of perpetrating such acts themselves.

Strawman. Noone has claimed that.

	04-11-2003 01:50									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler And who is saying that? How far are those comments self-serving, when we talk say about some lobby groups? Those radical zionist groups have turned "antisemitic" to mean "critical of Israel". They think that will discredit criticism of Israel. It worked in the US. It will not work in Europe. The problem is that it creates a blur between actual, classic antisemites and newspeak antisemites. A few years ago, I would have been insulted by being called an antisemite. Now the term has been so overused that I don't give a flying **** about it.

The groups that are saying it are not "radically zionist" imho. And they are not selfserving, IMHO. I have seen some of the newspaper articles, some of the cartoons, etc and I agree that they are antisemitic. YOu may think I am self serving.

It has not worked in the US. AMericans are often critical of Israel. But you dont see (usually) the kind of antisemitic rhetoric employed here.

Let me ask you this - would you consider ANY criticism of Israel to be antisemitic, as long as it distinguished between Israelis and diaspora Jews? Are there any cartoons, any comparisons to the Nazis, any kind of rhetoric deployed against Israel that you would consider antisemitic?

	04-11-2003 01:52									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

lord of the mark, I guess you're right though.. TRUE euros always want to feel like they are euros and not so much their original nationality. I don't know.. maybe I'm minority in that sense, so I guess it's not a mistake then to say so, say that europe this and that.. some people here want it..

and I didn't that you made those mistakes.. I meant in general. Besides, our FM is a weirdo human rights activist leftist commie dildo, who could have some anti-semitic cells in his body. For him, I don't give any guarantees. I'm glad Israel has understood us, because he kind of spoke about his own mind with some Israel politician and it got all over the papers because he was being a butthole about it. I think it was german for example and said the same things, he'd be divorced in less than one second. So you know.. he is a jackass for sure, and Israel could have made a case about it, but didn't, so that I appreciate.. not singleing us out when it was possible.

Aanyway, I see what you mean, and I agree. I think it'll be good economically, horrible foreign politically, horrible.
I'm done speaking, I just need to get out of here anyway, so I can join the euro-bashers .

	04-11-2003 01:58									#40
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What's so difficult with the concept of holding people responsible for what they have personally done? I am not responsible for the actions of my forefathers, neither are the Jews or the Germans. Any restitution offered is a form of mercy and ought to be treated as such rather than an entitlement. Otherwise one could look at the Irish famine, and argue that all the descendents of the British ought to pay the descendents of the Irish. And I would have to pay myself.

So ben, are you unwilling to repay the bonded debt of the Canadian state? Restituiotn is NOT a form of mercy, it is a legal obligation. Just like paying someone damages when you crash into their car.

You ask for mercy from a judge. The Jews did not ask for judgement from the Germans, but for restitution.

	04-11-2003 01:59									#41
	Inflate your Upload Space

a poll


From the ADL

"In June 2002 ADL conducted a similar survey in Belgium, France, Denmark, Germany and the United Kingdom. Following are country comparisons from the two surveys:
Percentage of those who believe Jews are more loyal to Israel than their home country: Spain 72%, Italy 58%, Germany 55%, Austria 54%, Belgium 50%, Switzerland 49%, The Netherlands 48%, Denmark 45%, France, 42% UK, 34%
Percentage of those who believe Jews have too much power in the business world: Spain 63%, Belgium 44%, France 42%, Austria 40%, Switzerland 37%, Germany 32%, UK 21%, The Netherlands 20%, Denmark 13%
Percentage of those who believe Jews still talk too much about the Holocaust: Germany 58%, Spain 57%, Austria 56%, Switzerland 52%, France 46%, Italy 43%, Belgium 38%, The Netherlands 35%, Denmark 30%, UK 23% "

	04-11-2003 02:05									#42
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

LotM:

quote: So ben, are you unwilling to repay the bonded debt of the Canadian state?

No, we have our own skeletons, particularly with aboriginals here in BC. I would be willing to pay but through mercy, not because it would be expected or required. I did not kill aboriginals, or steal their land, should I be required to pay restitution?

quote: Restituiotn is NOT a form of mercy, it is a legal obligation. Just like paying someone damages when you crash into their car.

Agreed. However, how can I be held personally responsible for the actions of my forefathers here in Canada? This is why you have a false analogy.

	04-11-2003 02:10									#43
	Tired of ads?

quote: Similarly it seems to me that anyone who wishes to be a German citizen has a share in the liabilities of the German state, including responsibity for reperations.

What about Jewish German citizens? Should they pay reparations too?

And of course, I strongly disagree with your claim that Europe is anti-semitic.

	04-11-2003 02:14									#44
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark It has not worked in the US. AMericans are often critical of Israel. But you dont see (usually) the kind of antisemitic rhetoric employed here.

The criticism is very muted, and it's a lot harsher here. We just draw different conclusions. You see antisemitism here, I see a big fat pro-Israeli bias there.

"would you consider ANY criticism of Israel to be antisemitic, as long as it distinguished between Israelis and diaspora Jews?"

You mean would I see that destinction make it automatically not antisemitic? No. There are the old antijewish groups who use Israel as a vehicle. But there are also many people who simply think Israel is following deplorable policies.

"Are there any cartoons, any comparisons to the Nazis, any kind of rhetoric deployed against Israel that you would consider antisemitic?"

Sure. Just not automatically.

As for the poll: I'm very sceptical about those nrs supposedly measuring antisemitism, I've seen them varying between 10 and 40 % roughly. The ADL seems to be on for a record. As soon as you ask for a gross generalization and offer only yes and no, you distort the picture.

"Percentage of those who believe Jews are more loyal to Israel than their home country"

I'd say that's for every Jew to decide. If he feels a stronger loyalty for Israel, why not.

The business world stereotype is usually still quite strong, but I wonder whether this is the question asked. Usually you get high nrs by phrasing it as "bigger than their population share", or something in that direction.

"Jews still talk too much about the Holocaust" - if that refers to Israeli government and pro-israeli lobbying organisations: I'd also say yes. More importantly, often in the wrong context. The "Holocaust Industry" is exaggerated, but putting the finger on a real problem.

	04-11-2003 02:21									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi LotM: No, we have our own skeletons, particularly with aboriginals here in BC. I would be willing to pay but through mercy, not because it would be expected or required. I did not kill aboriginals, or steal their land, should I be required to pay restitution? Agreed. However, how can I be held personally responsible for the actions of my forefathers here in Canada? This is why you have a false analogy.

You misudnestand me - i didnt mention aboriginals. If ic all my broker, he can probably by a bond issued by the Canadian Treasury (TreasCan?). You know, the kind of thing that says payable to bearer, $1000 Cdn. That kind of thing. It shows youre govt borrowed money, at some point, to build some loony highway through the spruce forests or whatever. Are you willing to pay taxes to pay off the loan? Even though you personally didnt make the loan? Even though the loan may have been made before you were born? To build a highway you think is a bad idea?

do you think repayment of a debt is a form of mercy, not an entitlement? Remind me not to lend money to you.

	04-11-2003 02:27									#46
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Sandman What about Jewish German citizens? Should they pay reparations too? .

The german STATE should pay reperation. Those Jews who have chose to live in Germany, as German citizens, should pay their share of taxes for that, as for ALL German state debts.

Similarly, should the US ever decide to pay reparations to African Americans, the funds would come out of the federal treasury, including taxes paid by african americans.


Look -If I own shares in say, Microsoft, and M$ does something illegal, and im damaged by it, and i sue, MS pays, and that comes (ultimately) out of the wealth of ALL stockholders, myself included. Why is this so hard to understand?

	04-11-2003 02:36									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler And who is saying that? How far are those comments self-serving, when we talk say about some lobby groups? Those radical zionist groups have turned "antisemitic" to mean "critical of Israel".

What a "radical zionist"? I have been a supporter of the Israeli Labor party for a long time, I supported the Oslo process, and I thought Barak was right to make his offer to Arafat at Taba. I have argued vociferously against people who want to transfer the Pals out of the territories, who think the Pals have no rights to the territories, and who claimed Abbas was not a genuine moderate. I do not as a general rule agree with Sharon, and think he is making many mistakes.

However I also think he has been surprising restrained since taking office, given the provocations. I do think 80% at least of what Israel has done in the last 3 years has been justified. I do not think is Israel is without some moral and legal rights in the territories, though I would sacrifice those rights for the sake of peace.

As far as i can tell most Jewish organizations in Europe and Israel are not more right wing than those positions, including those organizations that have focused on European antisemitism.

I also do not think that every Likud supporter is a "radical Zionist" - while I dont agree with their positions, they have some quite reasonable things to say.

	04-11-2003 02:45									#48
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark What a "radical zionist"? I have been a supporter of the Israeli Labor party for a long time, I supported the Oslo process, and I thought Barak was right to make his offer to Arafat at Taba.

I'm taking some freedom here to return a little of the flavour of the generous use of "anti-semitic". Can't help it.

But what do you make of the groups who talk all about Israel defending itself against terror, never mentioning Israeli state terrrorism, the settlements, the humiliation and discrimination of the palestinians?

"I have argued vociferously against people who want to transfer the Pals out of the territories"

Well those are not radical zionists, those are outright fascists.

"As far as i can tell most Jewish organizations in Europe and Israel are not more right wing than those positions"

You can be a radical zionist or having a gross pro-Israel bias even as a leftist. Just like anti-Israeli biasses cut from left across right.

	04-11-2003 03:00									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The same form of bigotry that recognizes the few as the many also recognizes the many as the few.

	04-11-2003 03:05									#50
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: That kind of thing. It shows youre govt borrowed money, at some point, to build some loony highway through the spruce forests or whatever.

I fail to see the leap from this example to restitutions. The government signed a contract, and should uphold their contract.

The same is with the debt. I (or rather the estate), of my father will be held responsible for any debts incurred.

These restitutions lack a contract made between the government and these parties.

	04-11-2003 03:10									#51
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler I'm taking some freedom here to return a little of the flavour of the generous use of "anti-semitic". Can't help it. But what do you make of the groups who talk all about Israel defending itself against terror, never mentioning Israeli state terrrorism, the settlements, the humiliation and discrimination of the palestinians? ".

I suppose they beleive that Israel is not guilty of state terrorism, and that the humiliation associated with occupation is not Israels fault, given their view of the history of the negotiations. Now I can understand that you disagree - but I cant understand that you choose to disregard their valid concerns about antisemitism on such grounds. Are the only people who are entitled to discuss antisemitism those who share your views of the situation in the middle east? That seems to me a way to shut down debate, not to expand it.

	04-11-2003 03:13									#52
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I fail to see the leap from this example to restitutions. The government signed a contract, and should uphold their contract. The same is with the debt. I (or rather the estate), of my father will be held responsible for any debts incurred. These restitutions lack a contract made between the government and these parties.

OK good. So we start with a debt.

Now suppose your grandfather was driving recklessly and hit somebody with his car. In the common law (do y'all still got it up there ) the guys whos hit would be entitled to damages from your father. This is called a tort, IIUC. If your grandfather dies before the guy is paid, hes entitled to damages from your grandfathers estate. It is a debt on the estate, same as if there was a contract.

	04-11-2003 03:19									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The german STATE should pay reperation. Those Jews who have chose to live in Germany, as German citizens, should pay their share of taxes for that, as for ALL German state debts. Similarly, should the US ever decide to pay reparations to African Americans, the funds would come out of the federal treasury, including taxes paid by african americans. Look -If I own shares in say, Microsoft, and M$ does something illegal, and im damaged by it, and i sue, MS pays, and that comes (ultimately) out of the wealth of ALL stockholders, myself included. Why is this so hard to understand?

Ok, at least you're being consistent. Although I disagree with the idea of national guilt completely. It's like punishing the murder weapon as well as the murderer.

	04-11-2003 03:26									#54
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sandman Ok, at least you're being consistent. Although I disagree with the idea of national guilt completely. It's like punishing the murder weapon as well as the murderer.

But do you agree with the idea of a state debt?


How about this - before Germany makes the case that they should not be liable for further reparations related to the holocaust, they forgive all Iraqi debts incrurred by the previous regime. Why should Iraqi victims of Saddam hussein have to pay for loans taken by Saddam Hussein to oppress them, and have to repay them to the very nations that supported Saddam?

	04-11-2003 03:37									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: If your cousin is implying that what the Israeli troops are doing in the territories is what the Germans did in Europe, he is not only morally incorrect, he is woefully ill-informed.

She. And is talking in general... attacking civilians, treating as second class citizens etc. I personally think a more appropriate analogy is that of apartheid, but unlike her I think it is unacceptable, notwithstanding the holocaust.

quote: But do you agree with the idea of a state debt?

Yep, a solid, financial concept involving bank accounts and quantifiable factors. Not an abstract, emotional response that relies on the flawed notion of generations, nations, and races. Note the word "individual", which is where guilt lies, and that was resolved at Nuremberg in 1945-46. Case closed as far as I'm concerned, now we gotta look back and regard this as a terrible phase of history, not using it as a justification for some sort of vendetta, for want of a better word. The kind of vigilante justice on the ethnocentric level is something I find abhorrent, and is a dishonour to all Jews who have peaceful intent. To those Jews who still want to use the holocaust to govern their actions now, perhaps even use as a justification, I say "get over it". Its been and done. It was terrible, but lets move on.

	04-11-2003 03:39									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: How about this - before Germany makes the case that they should not be liable for further reparations related to the holocaust, they forgive all Iraqi debts incrurred by the previous regime. Why should Iraqi victims of Saddam hussein have to pay for loans taken by Saddam Hussein to oppress them, and have to repay them to the very nations that supported Saddam?

Well, exactly. The loans taken out by Saddam should be waived. It would be nice if the West applied this policy consistently, with the debts of Zaire accumulated under Mobutu being waived since he was was overthrown.

	04-11-2003 03:40									#57
	Support Apolyton

quote: Now suppose your grandfather was driving recklessly and hit somebody with his car. In the common law (do y'all still got it up there ) the guys whos hit would be entitled to damages from your father. This is called a tort,

We have a statute of limitations of around 7 years IIRC. Therefore, if my grandfather got charged, and died before the case came to trial, his estate if he were found guilty would be charged.

Now, if you waited 7 years to file charges, he would not be held responsible even if he were guilty.

The same applies to these charges for restitution.

	04-11-2003 03:51									#58
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi We have a statute of limitations of around 7 years IIRC. Therefore, if my grandfather got charged, and died before the case came to trial, his estate if he were found guilty would be charged. Now, if you waited 7 years to file charges, he would not be held responsible even if he were guilty. The same applies to these charges for restitution.

we're talking civil damages, not criminal charges. I doubt theres a time limit.

	04-11-2003 04:02									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I doubt that your analogy is valid

	04-11-2003 04:02									#60
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy She. And is talking in general... attacking civilians, treating as second class citizens etc. I personally think a more appropriate analogy is that of apartheid, but unlike her I think it is unacceptable, notwithstanding the holocaust. Yep, a solid, financial concept involving bank accounts and quantifiable factors. Not an abstract, emotional response that relies on the flawed notion of generations, nations, and races. Note the word "individual", which is where guilt lies, and that was resolved at Nuremberg in 1945-46. Case closed as far as I'm concerned, now we gotta look back and regard this as a terrible phase of history, not using it as a justification for some sort of vendetta, for want of a better word. The kind of vigilante justice on the ethnocentric level is something I find abhorrent, and is a dishonour to all Jews who have peaceful intent. To those Jews who still want to use the holocaust to govern their actions now, perhaps even use as a justification, I say "get over it". Its been and done. It was terrible, but lets move on.

can we please look at the post that started this thread?

"On Sunday Mr Hohmann was thrown off a parliamentary commission looking at compensation for Nazi-era forced labourers. "

We're NOT talking about racial guilt. We're NOT talking about a vendetta against Germans. and Jesus Christ and General Jackson, we're NOT talking about the Middle East. This is ABOUT a commission, that the Germans, a very decent people who take history quite seriously, have established to look into the issue of compensation claims by people who were slave laborers under the Nazis. People who quite often were NOT jewish, by the way. The claim is made, IIUC, that the German state should pay for this labor and associated damages - payment that has not been made in certain cases even now.

The MP in question has raised the red herring (if you will)of racial guilt. The German state used slave laborers (NOT ALL JEWS, by any means). M any of those slave laborers are still alive. They seek not mercy, but compensation for the damages done to them.

I fail to see why this is such a matter of controversy, or what it has to do with the crimes of the Communists, or the situation in the Gaza strip, or some sermonizing about mercy. Somebody commited a tort against someone - so damages are owed - end of story - maybe my simple common law influenced Anglo-saxon (!!!!) mind cant fathom all the paths you folks are taking.

And i dont think a state of limitations is particularly appropriate here, depending on the history of proceedings since the war. Which i presume the commision is looking at.

You break it, you pay for it. A company breaks it, the company pays for it, even if the stockholders are different now. A state breaks it, the state pays for it, even if the citizens are different. Works for me.