03-11-2003 20:39									#1
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...what´s your opinion about that?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3237679.stm

quote: Jewish slur MP faces probe Hohmann has apologised for his comments German prosecutors have opened an inquiry into alleged anti-Semitic remarks by a member of parliament. Christian Democrat Martin Hohmann compared the actions of Jews in the Russian revolution to those of the Nazis in the Holocaust. In a storm of angry reaction he was forced on Saturday to apologise for the remarks, made during a speech in October. But prosecutors on Monday announced their inquiry had been opened after a criminal complaint had been filed, alleging incitement, slander and disparaging the dead. Prosecutors in the central city of Fulda, near the town where the speech was delivered, said the identify of the person who filed the complaint was not being made public, although reports said it was an individual from Bonn. Jewish groups were furious at the Holocaust comparison The Central Council of Jews had earlier said it was planning to lodge a complaint. The full text of Mr Hohmann's speech will now be examined by the prosecutors, before they decide whether to mount a full-scale inquiry, says prosecutors' spokesman Harry Wilke. Mr Hohmann's comments drew angry reaction from Jewish leaders and widespread criticism. 'Innocent lambs' He argued that while Germans still felt burdened by their Nazi past, others cast themselves as "innocent lambs" despite their own records - for example, the role of Jewish Bolsheviks in the 1917 Russian revolution. "With a certain justification, one could ask in view of the millions killed in the first phase of the revolution about the 'guilt' of the Jews," Mr Hohmann said. Blame should not be placed on the Germans for Nazi crimes or Jews for those of the Bolsheviks, but rather "the godless with their godless ideologies", he argued. On Sunday Mr Hohmann was thrown off a parliamentary commission looking at compensation for Nazi-era forced labourers. Leadership talks Christian Democrat leaders were due to discuss the case on Monday. Critics have called for him to be suspended from the parliamentary group. A German Government spokesman called the remarks "an unacceptable and intolerable gaffe". According to a transcript of his speech on the website of his local CDU branch in Neuhof, Mr Hohmann said: "Jews were active in great numbers in the leadership as well as in the Cheka [Soviet secret police] firing squads. "Thus one could describe Jews with some justification as a Taetervolk [a race of perpetrators]. "That may sound horrible. But it would follow the same logic with which one describes the Germans as a race of perpetrators." However, he went on to say: "Neither the Germans nor the Jews are a race of perpetrators." The speech has since been taken off the site.

As always, something like this is a huge thing in Germany. The reaction is negative even in his own party.

I read the whole speech in German, he makes also a lot of other points (most of them nonsense IMO) I´m also not sure if his final turn (""Neither the Germans nor the Jews are a race of perpetrators.") isn´t just rhetorics to avoid criticism.

	03-11-2003 20:42									#2
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Oh and non-Jews can reply too

	03-11-2003 20:48									#3
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It pisses me off that in some countries, free speech apparently doesn't extend to criticizing certain groups of people.

	03-11-2003 20:50									#4
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Free speech is just a myth that you have in the US.

	03-11-2003 20:55									#5
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Well, I completely disagree with Hohmann´s POV. He should be criticized for the content of his speech, but there should be a kind of open discussion about it. We usually have the "one cannot say that" attitude here in Germany, which is imo not very helpful. If what he says is wrong, the political reaction should make clear WHY this is wrong. Simply canceling the discussion about it is no solution.

	03-11-2003 20:57									#6
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Ok, have to leave now, will check back later....

	03-11-2003 21:01									#7
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Look, i dont think germans are "a race of perpatrators" But Germans are the governing people (staatvolk?) of Germany, and even those who were anti-Nazi have some degree of responsibility for the Nazi state, just as I have some degree of responsibility for maltreatment of Native Americans, regardless of when my ancestors came to the US.

Jews qua Jews had NO such role in the USSR. The USSR was not a Jewish state. Those Jews who played leading roles in the USSR also persecuted both Judaism as a religion, and also persecuted secular Jewish nationalism, in both its Zionist and Yiddish-Bundist forms. There is no analogy with whatever guilt (if any) the Germans should bare for the Nazis.

Now if one wants to make a serious case against the notion of national guilt for Germany go ahead and make one (of course then one has to deal with the limited numbers of anti-Nazi resistors versus the large number of people who quiety went along) This seems to be a deliberate attempt to avoid and confuse the issue, by confusing NATIONAL guilt (associated with citizenship in and identification with a STATE) with collective guilt of a race or religion. To put it differently, a person of German DESCENT who lives in, say Canada, has no responsibility for reparations, etc. Just as someone of American descent living in say, Brazil, does not have any responsibility for apologies to native Americans. As a Jew whose ancestors left Russia before 1917, and whose politics was consistently anti-Communist, and I dont see how I have a responsibility for the actions of the USSR - I DO see how i have a responsibility for the massacre at Wounded Knee.

That the notion of blaming Jews for communist crimes was a trope of the antisemitic right for many years only makes this look worse.


It is not only wrong, it is VERY troubling. If it is not first priority now, it is because Jews are actually being murdered now, by people who seem to get the sympathy of much of the european left, who seem unable to condemn the murder of Jews by terrorists without adding a "but".

	03-11-2003 21:04									#8
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd It pisses me off that in some countries, free speech apparently doesn't extend to criticizing certain groups of people.

Ciritisizing Jews (most of whom are and were anti-communists) for the actions of some individuals in the USSR is not anti-semitism? And we'er not in the context of Israel here, BTW.

This is why when someone IN THE CONTEXT of Israel says that its unfair to call criticism of the Jews and Israel antisemitism, i have a tendency to be skeptical of that persons good will.

	03-11-2003 21:11									#9
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The infamous conspiracy theory the commie zionist plot to rule the world pours out of the sewar once again. It's really getting old.

	03-11-2003 21:11									#10
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re the freedom of speech issues

1. The FRG is historically more limiting of pro-Nazi and other racist speech than is the USA. While I stand up for the 1st amendment approach in the US, I dont think FRG's different approach has made the FRG an undemocratic or closed society. Maybe the FRG doesnt need such restrictions anymore? I dont know, though items like this dont help the libertarian side of that question
2. CDU taking it off their website. Well the CDU is a political party, and THEIR free speech rights include the right to remove things that dont speek for them. Its quite understandable that they would take such a speech off.
3. Its one thing to advocate in free speech - that doesnt mean one doesnt have the right to hold ELECTED OFFICIALS (and high appointed officials) accountable for hateful speech. Trent Lott as a PRIVATE CITIZEN has the right to say whatever he wants about Strom Thurmond, segregation, etc. But citizens have the right to question whether he should be Senate Majority leader. Gen Boykin has the right to say that Muslims are idol worshippers - but citizens have the right to question whether he is fit for a high post in the War on Terrorism.

	03-11-2003 21:46									#11
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quote: That the notion of blaming Jews for communist crimes was a trope of the antisemitic right for many years only makes this look worse.

No, Jews should only be blamed for crimes that Jews committed. That means that if a Jew, in the employ of the communists, committed a crime, then that Jew should be held responsible, as should a Christian, Muslim, Ukrainian, or anyone else.

quote: Ciritisizing Jews (most of whom are and were anti-communists) for the actions of some individuals in the USSR is not anti-semitism?

Individuals, including Jews, should be criticized for their own actions. So, if a Jewish Russian working for the communists participated in mass murder, he should be held responsible.

Regarding your points about free speech, the problem lies in the fact that it is nearly impossible to criticize Jews in Germany - it's almost taboo, it seems. Of course the CDU has the right to pull speeches from its website - but there should be no laws against anti-Jewish speech any more than there should be laws against anti-Soviet speech, or anti-American speech.

	03-11-2003 22:12									#12
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Note that I couldn't be bothered to read the article

I'm fed up of many in the Jewish community that seem to regard the holocaust as an excuse for people to get away with murder, sometimes literally. As a Jew myself I feel that this is something that history will not judge kindly.

I expect that ANYONE who commits an atrocity should be dealt with and regarded in the same way as any other, be they Jewish or otherwise. My religious cousin, when faced with the reports of the barbarism of Israeli troops in the occupied territories, says, "well "they" did it to us in the holocaust" .

I dont believe that we should get special dispensation simply because of all the crap we went through, nor do I think that this paranoid backlash against anti-semitism is productive. We need to let these people speak so we can crush their arguments in public, in the open, using logic and reason, not cloak and dagger tactics to preserve the sensibilities and play up to the guilt of others who seem to have difficulty in facing up to what has happened in the past. Let this be known: the generation that committed the holocaust is dying. How bout we stop walking on eggshells?

	03-11-2003 22:13									#13
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Whaleboy

	03-11-2003 22:18									#14
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hi ,

the excuse aint big enough , ......

he should be reading his own country history before he opens his stupid mounth again , .....

and it aint the first time he has used things like that , .....

have a nice day

	03-11-2003 22:20									#15
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See? That's the attitude I'm talking about - of COURSE a GERMAN can't criticize a JEW, that would be ridiculous!

	03-11-2003 22:29									#16
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Can someone explain to me, in logical, literal terms, what was so bad about his speech? After having read the article just now , I fail to see the problem .

"I'm a German. The Jews could be regarded of being guilty of something. The logic is flawed. Nor Jews or Germans today are guilty of anything".

Seems like a reasonable critical analysis?

	03-11-2003 22:36									#17
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It is stupid for this man to take the whole group of people, Jews, and go on about it like this.

But I'd like to remind, that this is what some people do for Euros. 'Europe is anti-semite'. Some people are. Not all. So, that's anti-europeanism. Agreed?

	03-11-2003 22:41									#18
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But he is saying that "Neither the Germans nor the Jews are a race of perpetrators", so there can be no shared ethnic blame. Your argument is a strawman.

	03-11-2003 22:42									#19
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If that is how he concludes his speech, then what was the point of his speech to begin with? That I fail to see.

	03-11-2003 22:45									#20
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The stupidity of his words are in the comparison of the actions of Bolsheviks, and Nazis. This is in no way a valid comparison. I don't think that he's an anti-semite, or that his statement, taken alone, is. It's still is an extremely stupid statement, though I don't think he should be tried for it.

	03-11-2003 22:49									#21
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quote: If that is how he concludes his speech, then what was the point of his speech to begin with? That I fail to see.

None, if you assume his intentions to be anti-semitic, which they don't seem to be. Nonetheless, tell that to the reactionaries .

quote: The stupidity of his words are in the comparison of the actions of Bolsheviks, and Nazis. This is in no way a valid comparison. I don't think that he's an anti-semite, or that his statement, taken alone, is. It's still is an extremely stupid statement, though I don't think he should be tried for it.

His comparison is flawed, Azazel you are indeed correct in saying that. There are plenty more ways to critique his speech than a knee-jerk ad hominem that does nothing to attack his argument. I trust it is you who would rectify that situation, and as a critical analyst, it is appreciated.

	03-11-2003 22:57									#22
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It was an incredibly clumsy way of saying that neither the actions of Jews in the Russian revolution nor those of the Nazis in the Holocaust warrant natonal guilt. The implied comparison is stupid indeed.

As for national guilt, there is no such thing. National responsibility, yes.

	04-11-2003 00:39									#23
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No, Jews should only be blamed for crimes that Jews committed. That means that if a Jew, in the employ of the communists, committed a crime, then that Jew should be held responsible, as should a Christian, Muslim, Ukrainian, or anyone else. Individuals, including Jews, should be criticized for their own actions. So, if a Jewish Russian working for the communists participated in mass murder, he should be held responsible. .

But he didnt name particular Jews - he named Jews as a group.

	04-11-2003 00:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy But he is saying that "Neither the Germans nor the Jews are a race of perpetrators", so there can be no shared ethnic blame. Your argument is a strawman.

Whos saying the Germans are a RACE of perpetrators? The context is a discussion of holding the GERMAN state responsible for past actions. Does someone want to hold the Russian state reponsible for actions of the USSR (of which Russia is the legal successor) Fine. Jews ARENT the Russian state. Why single out Jews?

	04-11-2003 00:48									#25
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler It was an incredibly clumsy way of saying that neither the actions of Jews in the Russian revolution nor those of the Nazis in the Holocaust warrant natonal guilt. The implied comparison is stupid indeed. As for national guilt, there is no such thing. National responsibility, yes.

The question I see is is their a national obligation. To me when you assert rights of citizenship in a state, that implies taking on the liabilities of that state as well.

I knew a girl in high school who didnt think she should feel an sense of obligation toward native Americans, since she was the daughter of refugees from Europe who came in the 1930's. I thought (and still think) her thinking was confused. She embraced American citizenship, with all the privileges that go with it. She wouldnt think of disavowing her share in the national bonded debt, evev the portions incurred prior to 1930. Similarly why should she disavow her share inthe obligations IF ANY for reparation towards Native Americans? When her parents took on US citizenship, they took on the obligations of Americans, as well as the assets.

Similarly it seems to me that anyone who wishes to be a German citizen has a share in the liabilities of the German state, including responsibity for reperations.

I am Jew. I am NOT and never have been a citizen of the USSR or any of its successor states. How, pray tell, do I have an obligation for the crimes of the Soviet Union that is in any way analogous to the obligation that a German CITIZEN has for the actions of the German state?

	04-11-2003 00:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Note that I couldn't be bothered to read the article I'm fed up of many in the Jewish community that seem to regard the holocaust as an excuse for people to get away with murder, sometimes literally. As a Jew myself I feel that this is something that history will not judge kindly. I expect that ANYONE who commits an atrocity should be dealt with and regarded in the same way as any other, be they Jewish or otherwise. My religious cousin, when faced with the reports of the barbarism of Israeli troops in the occupied territories, says, "well "they" did it to us in the holocaust" .

If your cousin is implying that what the Israeli troops are doing in the territories is what the Germans did in Europe, he is not only morally incorrect, he is woefully ill-informed.

	04-11-2003 00:54									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka It is stupid for this man to take the whole group of people, Jews, and go on about it like this. But I'd like to remind, that this is what some people do for Euros. 'Europe is anti-semite'. Some people are. Not all. So, that's anti-europeanism. Agreed?

if they are saying "all europeans are anti-semites" that is obviously absurd.

Many are saying that anti-semitism is widespread in Europe, and are basing this not only on Anti-semitic actions, but on Anti-israel rhetoric, which goes beyond criticisms of Israeli policies to rhetorical tropes that strike many Jews, and many non-Jewish Americans, as anti-semitic. Many europeans see these as automatically not antisemitic as long as they are directed at Israel, and not at Jews globally.

	04-11-2003 01:01									#28
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"I am Jew. I am NOT and never have been a citizen of the USSR or any of its successor states. How, pray tell, do I have an obligation for the crimes of the Soviet Union that is in any way analogous to the obligation that a German CITIZEN has for the actions of the German state?"

I'm not sure that's a good way t put it. Under those terms, as an Austrian citizen, why should I be in any way responsible for the actions of the German state? And Austria isn't a german successor state either.... maybe a bit too formal.

What it comes down to and what I meant: I'm not guilty of anything by virtue of nationality - and that's what national guilt implies. That my nation has a responsibility or an obligation, fine. If my grandfather stole your grandfather's house, I'm not guilty of theft, but I still should return it.

	04-11-2003 01:18									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The stupidity of his words are in the comparison of the actions of Bolsheviks, and Nazis.

hmmm... the early Bolsheviks forced the resettlement of millions, some on purely ethnic grounds (Tartars, Cossacks) and starved to death or outright killed millions of others... including entire families. The tenets of Communism attracted many educated, secular Jews, as it attracted many other urban yet underrepresented people.

How is this an unfair comparison ? It is extremely ignorant to believe the Bolsheviks were nice folks who were embraced by the people the ended up exterminating. It is also ignorant to believe that Jews are the only victims of historical wrongs, including genocide acts or incapable of perpetrating such acts themselves.

	04-11-2003 01:30									#30
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What's so difficult with the concept of holding people responsible for what they have personally done? I am not responsible for the actions of my forefathers, neither are the Jews or the Germans. Any restitution offered is a form of mercy and ought to be treated as such rather than an entitlement.

Otherwise one could look at the Irish famine, and argue that all the descendents of the British ought to pay the descendents of the Irish. And I would have to pay myself.