04-11-2003 04:33									#61
	Ok, some things, it is late here.... Suffering from ads?

quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by lord of the mark Jews qua Jews had NO such role in the USSR. The USSR was not a Jewish state. Those Jews who played leading roles in the USSR also persecuted both Judaism as a religion, and also persecuted secular Jewish nationalism, in both its Zionist and Yiddish-Bundist forms. There is no analogy with whatever guilt (if any) the Germans should bare for the Nazis.

I made nearly the same point on a German board about it. The entire Jewish-Bolschevik thing is idiotic, absolutely agree with Kropotkin here.

quote: That the notion of blaming Jews for communist crimes was a trope of the antisemitic right for many years only makes this look worse.

Well, I know. But that isn´t my point. When you write....

quote: It is not only wrong, it is VERY troubling.

...I can understand you, but my point is that there is nearly no refutation of his points anywhere here in Germany in the media or so. No discussion about what he said. There is simply the outcry "this is anti-semitic" - end of story. For me, to show where he´s wrong is the most important part, simply shutting down the speech or the discussion about it helps noone.

quote: If it is not first priority now, it is because Jews are actually being murdered now, by people who seem to get the sympathy of much of the european left, who seem unable to condemn the murder of Jews by terrorists without adding a "but".

Hm, this guy is not from the left, and he doesn´t get much sympathy, from neither side of the (democratic) political spectrum. Actually all our politicians who play with anti-semitic ressentiments get that kind of negative echo (don´t know if one knows Möllemann here), which I think is a positive sign.

To his points, I´m still undecided if he´s just clumsy (as Roland said it) or very calculating. As said, I read his entire speech, that Jewish-Bolshevik part takes a lot of space, only at the end he makes that turn where he says "neither are a race of perpetrators." I should note that the sentence in German doesn´t mention "race" as such but "people"(Volk), which makes a difference IMO. This is a kind of equation I don´t like, even if it sounds positive at the first look, because it boils down to a simple "they´re all the same", which has a relativating effect when related to Nazi crimes. As said, for me it is difficult to decide what his intentions were (except the usual whining that "Germany has suffered enough" which is not uncommon in certain parts of the German conservatives).

	04-11-2003 05:15									#62
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Many of the leaders of parts of the revolution were Jeish, i.e. Trotsky. However, the part about them being Chekist is complete b.s. Jewish members of the bolsheviks were specifically excluded from being Chekists because the were believed to be not as loyal to the Reveloution as they were thought of as bad communists for not being athiests. However, they controlled the War Ministry under Trotsky, until Stalin, that is.

	04-11-2003 05:16									#63
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I think we should forgive the Jews for anything they do, because they did, of course, invent the bagel

	04-11-2003 19:01									#65
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Now I can understand that you disagree - but I cant understand that you choose to disregard their valid concerns about antisemitism on such grounds. Are the only people who are entitled to discuss antisemitism those who share your views of the situation in the middle east? That seems to me a way to shut down debate, not to expand it.

No, that's a different issue, although the groups usually overlap. Are the groups that support Israel's policies and complain about european antisemitism worried about antisemitism? I think that is a very small part of their agenda.

There was for example a conference between US and european mostly jewish groups, and the europeans warned against aggressive lobbying as that was certain to produce a negative reaction - just as it would from exile Cubans or buttplugged martians. We don't like aggressive special interest groups.

So what did the americans do? Start an aggressive campaign, eg Guliani's incredibly arrogant, ignorant and insulting conference speech. There comes the inevitable negative reaction, and woosha - evidence of more antisemitism. We had the same game with Waldheim, Haider etc. We've seen it with attacks on Jews in France - "you have to change your stance and media coverage on ISrael". Antisemitism is a PR tool for Israel, and a business tool for the belonging lobbying groups.

I think that say the german Zentralrat is genuine, though I disagree with their view of antisemitism as well as of Israel's policies. But as the default rule: anything associated with US lobbying groups (jewish or not) or Israeli government, I do not see as genuine.

	05-11-2003 00:35									#66
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler No, that's a different issue, although the groups usually overlap. Are the groups that support Israel's policies and complain about european antisemitism worried about antisemitism? I think that is a very small part of their agenda.

In the case of the ADL that is the Center of their agenda. And they have sometimes disagreed with Israeli policy where the foreign policiy of Israel and the interests of fighting antisemitism diverge - which happens not infrequently. For example the current govt of Israel is quite chummy with Vladimir Putin, who is very much a suspect figure to the anti antisemitism groups. Ditto with respect to the American Religious Right, such as Pat Robertson, who wins kudos from Israel and from groups like AIPAC whose primary concern is relations with Israel, and considerable unease from those whose main concern is antisemitism.

quote: I think that say the german Zentralrat is genuine, though I disagree with their view of antisemitism as well as of Israel's policies. But as the default rule: anything associated with US lobbying groups (jewish or not) or Israeli government, I do not see as genuine.

Well youre entitled to do that if you wish.

	05-11-2003 00:40									#67
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Hm, this guy is not from the left, and he doesn´t get much sympathy, from neither side of the (democratic) political spectrum. Actually all our politicians who play with anti-semitic ressentiments get that kind of negative echo (don´t know if one knows Möllemann here), which I think is a positive sign.

I realized that the guy is from the CDU. I guess what i meant to say was, that its hard for me to jump up and down about a stupid comment from a German CDU pol, when there are much more pressing issues on the table with Europe, most of which involved the European left. The revival of an antisemitic trope (if thats actully what his guy intended) is a long term concern - dealing with the European refusal to use all weapons at its disposal, including diplomatic boycotts, to press Arafat to allow a Pal Interior who might actually move to disarm the people who plant bombs in cafes and shopping malls in Tel Aviv and Haifa is a rather more pressing concern. And the spread of vicious antisemitic tropes in the European left as well.

	05-11-2003 02:08									#68
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark In the case of the ADL that is the Center of their agenda. And they have sometimes disagreed with Israeli policy where the foreign policiy of Israel and the interests of fighting antisemitism diverge - which happens not infrequently.

I tend to give the ADL the benefit of the doubt. The WJC, on the other hand, is an example for making antisemitism a business. It's sad that the Wiesenthal center, which has done a lot of good in persecuting Nazi criminals, has now degenerated into that fold, apparently.

"Well youre entitled to do that if you wish."

I certainly do. The problem is that after some organisations cried wolf all the time, nobody will listen to the genuinely concerned when a real problem arises.

"And the spread of vicious antisemitic tropes in the European left as well."

What exactly do you mean by that?

	05-11-2003 02:43									#69
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so , its save to say now that most of the people in this thread are Jewish , .....


ones again so many people who talk about things they have not a single notion on , ......

its a bit a shame

no , it aint a personal insult whatever to anyone , just an observation that the same people over and over again use the same lines , .....

	05-11-2003 17:39									#70
	Re: Re: Ok, some things, it is late here.... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark when there are much more pressing issues on the table with Europe, most of which involved the European left.

For example?

quote: dealing with the European refusal to use all weapons at its disposal, including diplomatic boycotts, to press Arafat to allow a Pal Interior who might actually move to disarm the people who plant bombs in cafes and shopping malls in Tel Aviv and Haifa is a rather more pressing concern.

It is not our duty to agree on everything the Israeli government wants. Even the US didn´t do this. Israelis are not the only dying people in the ME. And the root of the violence in the ME is certainly not the position of the Eu or the European left in certain questions. To think that the Eu could stop the terror with a history of decades by making some quick decisions regarding Arafat is naive (I also think if we could do that, we would have already done it).

If your position is that it would be helpful to contain the terror -- fine, that is debatable. But it is certainly not the only possible POV in this issue.

	05-11-2003 17:49									#71
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As it seems, Hohmann (I call him Hohlmann - hollow man) is not the only idiot here. The leader of the German special forces unit KSK, brigadier Reinhard Günzel, has been sacked, because he had written a letter to Hohmann, thanking him for his "insightful speech with courage to be clear and honest" (my translation, I know it sucks).

	05-11-2003 21:41									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph As it seems, Hohmann (I call him Hohlmann - hollow man) is not the only idiot here. The leader of the German special forces unit KSK, brigadier Reinhard Günzel, has been sacked, because he had written a letter to Hohmann, thanking him for his "insightful speech with courage to be clear and honest" (my translation, I know it sucks).

hi ,

and he shall not be the only one , the state DA has started to investigate several other people also

have a nice day

	05-11-2003 22:01									#73
	Re: Re: Re: Ok, some things, it is late here.... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by BeBro For example? It is not our duty to agree on everything the Israeli government wants. Even the US didn´t do this. Israelis are not the only dying people in the ME. And the root of the violence in the ME is certainly not the position of the Eu or the European left in certain questions. To think that the Eu could stop the terror with a history of decades by making some quick decisions regarding Arafat is naive (I also think if we could do that, we would have already done it). If your position is that it would be helpful to contain the terror -- fine, that is debatable. But it is certainly not the only possible POV in this issue.

I did not say it is the only possible POV, but it IS my POV, and i think it is important, and far more so than the comments of some marginal CDU figure.