04-11-2003 11:56									#1
	"Donor" bases: pop boom trick Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This may be useful in OCC, or for the super-science city. I am just curious whether any of you have ever used the following trick.

Just build a donor base. The purpose of this base is to continuously produce Colony Pods, and nothing else. No much space is needed, for this base seldom exceeds a size of 2. If such a base is ever captured, it's not a big deal. Add the Pods to a well developed base (e.g. the super-science city). In this way, even without ever building Hab facilities, you can get a base as huge as you wish (as long as you have enough food). It seems to work well. Imagine a Morgan base of pop 25 in the middle of the game.

	04-11-2003 12:22									#2
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Also known as pod-booming, I believe. It's most useful when you have the PTS.

	04-11-2003 12:44									#3
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Nothing new can be invented in this world.

BTW, what the hell is PTS?

	04-11-2003 12:58									#4
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Nothing new can be invented in this world. BTW, what the hell is PTS?

The Planetary Transit System. It's very useful in pod-booming, because when you disband the "donor" base and re-found it, it immediately gets back to a population of 3. You can build 2 colony pods every 3 turns this way if you have pre-terraformed a few boreholes and a condensor farm and you have a few crawlers to give to the "donor" base. I think it was Ogie who invented the PTS pod-booming.

	04-11-2003 13:07									#5
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Thanks. I should have guessed that. Well, it really seems that PTS is helpful in this kind of pop booming. Nice strategy.

	04-11-2003 21:41									#6
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It is a pretty decent strategy but at populations less than the limits, it is usually better to just use a Demo/planned/creche pop boom for any faction for which it is available.

I know that some players did consider it a cheat to exceed hab dome or hab complex limits on the theory that you could avoid a game mechanism but that view never really took hold and the tactic is permitted in all PBEMs AFAIK


Oh and The vagabond-- 2 comments

1. never stop trying to come up with new things-- Even if they are well-known by some, there are probably a whole bunch of people out there that don't know the tactic/trick

2. You can't pod-boom in OCC BY DEFINITION. It would be a great strategy for that type of game but would make the game so much easier as to reduce the challenge

	04-11-2003 22:59									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage The Planetary Transit System. It's very useful in pod-booming, because when you disband the "donor" base and re-found it, it immediately gets back to a population of 3. You can build 2 colony pods every 3 turns this way if you have pre-terraformed a few boreholes and a condensor farm and you have a few crawlers to give to the "donor" base. I think it was Ogie who invented the PTS pod-booming.

Isn't that a cheat?

	04-11-2003 23:27									#8
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond This may be useful in OCC,:

Not much use for OCC, where you only get one base.

	04-11-2003 23:27									#9
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Isn't that a cheat?

In my opinion, no. If others feel differently, it should be specified before a multiplayer game whether this is to be accepted. But I don't think this is usually banned in MP.

	05-11-2003 00:48									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage In my opinion, no. If others feel differently, it should be specified before a multiplayer game whether this is to be accepted. But I don't think this is usually banned in MP.

Its not in either the CGN or the apolyton tournament rules. There may be games that ban this but it usually don't come up. Realistically each new colony pod added beyond hab limits becomes a specialist and even if we are talking engineers, thats 3 econ and 2 labs-- You can get much the same benefit (5 energy) just building more and more crawlers.

And as I said before, pod booming below hab limits usually does not make sense with any faction that can reach +6 growth. You can usually time your stay in "Planned" with the building of an SP and the rushing of a bunch of units/facilities.

	05-11-2003 01:28									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Realistically each new colony pod added beyond hab limits becomes a specialist and even if we are talking engineers, thats 3 econ and 2 labs-- You can get much the same benefit (5 energy) just building more and more crawlers.

I can see a slight benefit here if you're short on space (no room for more crawlers) or the enemy is sniping your crawlers and you can't protect them.

quote: Originally posted by Flubber And as I said before, pod booming below hab limits usually does not make sense with any faction that can reach +6 growth. You can usually time your stay in "Planned" with the building of an SP and the rushing of a bunch of units/facilities.

I agree, pod booming is nothing compared to pop booming. Then again, I might build some colony pods when I'm pop booming and later add them to my bases in order to bypass base limits, but usually I'd use the pods to found more bases.

	05-11-2003 03:06									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage I can see a slight benefit here if you're short on space (no room for more crawlers) or the enemy is sniping your crawlers and you can't protect them.

Point taken if running out of space but I can usually find a place for a trawler to go . . .

if an enemy is sniping at me, I doubt I would be using much resources to force an extra population point anywhere . My nice 2 borehole size 3 base would do much better to pump out a interceptor/ship/chopper per turn to go deal with whoever is harassing me.

	05-11-2003 03:24									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Point taken if running out of space but I can usually find a place for a trawler to go . . . if an enemy is sniping at me, I doubt I would be using much resources to force an extra population point anywhere . My nice 2 borehole size 3 base would do much better to pump out a interceptor/ship/chopper per turn to go deal with whoever is harassing me.

I don't really disagree with you, I was merely trying to find a (hypothetical) situation where pod booming would be a good idea. Generally speaking, it doesn't seem like a good idea, unless you're playing a faction that can't pop boom easily.

	05-11-2003 14:58									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage I don't really disagree with you, I was merely trying to find a (hypothetical) situation where pod booming would be a good idea. Generally speaking, it doesn't seem like a good idea, unless you're playing a faction that can't pop boom easily.

If you have Merchant Exchange, Supercollider and Theory of Everything in the same base, it's a good idea to pod-boom that base.

	05-11-2003 15:07									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Oh and The vagabond-- 2 comments 1. never stop trying to come up with new things-- Even if they are well-known by some, there are probably a whole bunch of people out there that don't know the tactic/trick

Thanks, that's inspiring.

quote: 2. You can't pod-boom in OCC BY DEFINITION. It would be a great strategy for that type of game but would make the game so much easier as to reduce the challenge

Oops, yes. But then I played a "modified" OCC.

Also, according to the OCC rules, it seems to be legal to hold a captured base for a limited period of time. Then it can be used for pod-booming.

	05-11-2003 15:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond If you have Merchant Exchange, Supercollider and Theory of Everything in the same base, it's a good idea to pod-boom that base.

Or you could build crawlers (or trawlers) and rehome them to that base. The crawlers cost three rows like colony pods, but they don't take citizens away from existing bases, nor do they require support. The new specialist would require 2 nutrients as support.

If we have a base with the Merchant Exchange and a Thermocline Transducer, and we're running FM, a trawler will bring in 6 energy, one more than an engineer. Of course, land based energy parks give even more energy, but they require more terraforming time. And if you have your headquarters in this base (as you should), you will lose no energy to inefficiency.

	06-11-2003 04:52									#17
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quote: I know that some players did consider it a cheat to exceed hab dome or hab complex limits on the theory that you could avoid a game mechanism but that view never really took hold and the tactic is permitted in all PBEMs AFAIK

It's not permited in the ACDG, as I was disappointed to find out.

If you are a pop boom impaired faction, and have the HGP, you can create an pepetual pod factory out of a size 4 base without using allocating energy to pysch. This is independant of the bureaucracy limit too.

Basically you can drive a size 4 base into golden age by setting two doctors. Say you've gotten to the 9th beaucracy limit. because 2 of your citizens are specialists you can only get 2 b-drones. With some holographic theatre and a tree farm it's possible to overcome those two b-drones.

In the size 4 base set 21 minerals per turn, give +2 nutrinents overall, and have the base enter golden age for a turn first. Then set the base to build a colony pod. It will build a colony pod every turn without you having to adjust the specialists anymore (didn't bother to figure out the turn sequence to explain why). This will allow those population boom impaired factions (with HGP) to create a pod every turn no matter how many b-drone warnings they have had.

I would go on more about pop booming, but I've realised all my other strategies on this subject have narrow time frames and are even more situation specific.

	06-11-2003 07:49									#18
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Vagabond keep thinking!! Keep trying new things.

In OCC, sometimes during slow times with nothing to build, you can get away with building clean colony pods. If you are in a pop boom phase this can allow you to max out to pre hab dome limits whilst storing a number of pods in base. Once you've built a number of these pods you can set about to adding them to the base thus allowing you to utilize the full 20 squares and potentially add a number of specialists to the mix as well.

Now usually the better approach is to send crawlers out and about but they are after all susceptible to air power pick off and you'll likely not be fielding a decently sized military due to your one and only one build queue limitation. long and short of it is that it is most times better to rely on population for mins/energy then on crawlers/trawlers as they are more secure in OCC games.

	07-11-2003 03:36									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Kody If you are a pop boom impaired faction, and have the HGP, you can create an pepetual pod factory out of a size 4 base without using allocating energy to pysch. This is independant of the bureaucracy limit too. Basically you can drive a size 4 base into golden age by setting two doctors. Say you've gotten to the 9th beaucracy limit. because 2 of your citizens are specialists you can only get 2 b-drones. With some holographic theatre and a tree farm it's possible to overcome those two b-drones. In the size 4 base set 21 minerals per turn, give +2 nutrinents overall, and have the base enter golden age for a turn first. Then set the base to build a colony pod. It will build a colony pod every turn without you having to adjust the specialists anymore (didn't bother to figure out the turn sequence to explain why). This will allow those population boom impaired factions (with HGP) to create a pod every turn no matter how many b-drone warnings they have had.

That is a nice trick, especially since it requires no micromanagement once you've set up the base. Of course, it's no match for normal pop-booming, but I see that this strategy could be useful for the Hive.

quote: Originally posted by Kody I would go on more about pop booming, but I've realised all my other strategies on this subject have narrow time frames and are even more situation specific.

Well, I'd still be interested in hearing some or your tricks. Pop booming is such a big deal in the game, that any tips concerning it would be helpful. Of course, I presume your strategies are Hive- related, but I think the GA tricks could apply to other factions as well.

By the way, are you still in the ACDTG?

	07-11-2003 07:15									#20
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I don't know if I should say anything about the other pop booming things, as they are currently in use.

I'm currently still performing consulting for the Hive. I'm hoping if I stay away from the hive long enough, I won't be needed for a critical time consuming role. When I no longer need to be constantly consulted, I'll consider rejoining.

	07-11-2003 08:30									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Vagabond keep thinking!! Keep trying new things.

Thanks, I'll try.

quote: In OCC, sometimes during slow times with nothing to build, you can get away with building clean colony pods. If you are in a pop boom phase this can allow you to max out to pre hab dome limits whilst storing a number of pods in base. Once you've built a number of these pods you can set about to adding them to the base thus allowing you to utilize the full 20 squares and potentially add a number of specialists to the mix as well.

Well, it's actually a great idea to stockpile the pods while in a pop boom phase for later overcoming the hab limits. And this could be useful not only for OCC. A well developed base in the middle of the game can usually produces a pod in 1 or 2 turns. And the lost pop point is immediately restored due to the pop boom. That's great.

quote: Now usually the better approach is to send crawlers out and about but they are after all susceptible to air power pick off and you'll likely not be fielding a decently sized military due to your one and only one build queue limitation. long and short of it is that it is most times better to rely on population for mins/energy then on crawlers/trawlers as they are more secure in OCC games.

That is precisely what is bad about crawlers. As soon as Air Power becomes available, there is no way to protect them from the AI, at least not in OCC.

	07-11-2003 08:38									#22
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I rarely do the democracy/planned/creche thing, but rather just wait until I get the cloning vats.

	07-11-2003 08:38									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage Or you could build crawlers (or trawlers) and rehome them to that base. The crawlers cost three rows like colony pods, but they don't take citizens away from existing bases, nor do they require support. The new specialist would require 2 nutrients as support.

As disscussed above, a huge problem with crawler is that you can't defend them as soon as Air Power becomes available.

Anyway, I prefer to use both pod-booming and crawlers when possible. Crawlers may be more effective short-term, but pod-booming looks more reliable and solid in the long run.

quote: If we have a base with the Merchant Exchange and a Thermocline Transducer, and we're running FM, a trawler will bring in 6 energy, one more than an engineer. Of course, land based energy parks give even more energy, but they require more terraforming time. And if you have your headquarters in this base (as you should), you will lose no energy to inefficiency.

How do you get 6? It's just 2+1(ME)+1(Free Market)=4. Perhaps, on elevations, it's 3+1+1=5. But not 6.

Besides, engineers bring that in irrespective of the social choices.

	07-11-2003 10:03									#24
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quote: Originally posted by timotheus4 I rarely do the democracy/planned/creche thing, but rather just wait until I get the cloning vats.

If you wait for the vats, you've waited much too long, IMO.

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond As disscussed above, a huge problem with crawler is that you can't defend them as soon as Air Power becomes available. Anyway, I prefer to use both pod-booming and crawlers when possible. Crawlers may be more effective short-term, but pod-booming looks more reliable and solid in the long run.

Defending the crawlers might be difficult depending on the situation, but you don't need to have them aroung for a long time before they pay for themselves. Besides, you need crawlers for nutrients when you pod boom unless you want to use some of the new citizens as a workers instead of a specialists (inefficient).

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond How do you get 6? It's just 2+1(ME)+1(Free Market)=4. Perhaps, on elevations, it's 3+1+1=5. But not 6. Besides, engineers bring that in irrespective of the social choices.

A trawler = a sea crawler.

3 energy for a tidal harness, 1 for the ME, 1 for a Thermocline Transducer (SMAX), 1 for FM. True, you may want to wait for Fusion before you build these, but it's not like you can get Engineers before then anyway. And even if you're not running FM, you get the same 5 energy as with an Engineer, but without the support of 2 nutrients.

	08-11-2003 00:31									#25
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I seem to be in the minority here, for me the situation really is:

Why are there hab limits? This is a game mechanism to make hab facilities important (just as in all Civ games, incidentally).
What does pod booming do? At a certain, not tremendeously high cost, it makes this mechanism irrelevant.

To me, it is a loophole that breaks a game mechanism, and using it is an exploit.

But hey... in SP do whatever you want, it's no skin off my back. And in MP as long as we both can agree on the rules, then all exploits are OK as long as we know what's OK and isn't. (Nevertheless, there are standard "forbidden" exploits... I guess the real reason this one isn't is that in the end, it's not THAT powerful.)

USC

	08-11-2003 06:24									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Minute Mirage A trawler = a sea crawler. 3 energy for a tidal harness, 1 for the ME, 1 for a Thermocline Transducer (SMAX), 1 for FM. True, you may want to wait for Fusion before you build these, but it's not like you can get Engineers before then anyway. And even if you're not running FM, you get the same 5 energy as with an Engineer, but without the support of 2 nutrients.

Oh, I see. Never used trawlers. But defending trawlers should be a hell of a task. You don't need to wait until Air Power for them to become extremely vulnerable. Sea animals usually appear unannounced. I would hate to be rushing them all to safety any time an IoD appears on the horizon. Besides, as trawlers are more expensive than crawlers, losing one is more painful. Perhaps, an ideal place for trawlers would be a closed sea, but you can seldom find such a possibility.

	08-11-2003 07:50									#27
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Yet somehow I always survive the game without popbooming once.

	08-11-2003 15:22									#28
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quote: Originally posted by timotheus4 Yet somehow I always survive the game without popbooming once.

Do you mean single player? Considering that you can win the game with just one city, I don't find it surprising that you can "survive" the game against the AI without pop booming. Against a pop booming human opponent, I'd say you'd have serious problems.

	09-11-2003 06:14									#29
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Yeah, SP isn't the test of successful strategy.

The only reason this is an issue is because certain factions have altered pop limits (especially Morgan) and because SMAC doesn't have a hard limit on adding pop the way Civ2 limits it to size 8 under any circumstances.

	27-04-2004 19:16									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Kody If you are a pop boom impaired faction, and have the HGP, you can create an pepetual pod factory out of a size 4 base without using allocating energy to pysch. This is independant of the bureaucracy limit too. Basically you can drive a size 4 base into golden age by setting two doctors. Say you've gotten to the 9th beaucracy limit. because 2 of your citizens are specialists you can only get 2 b-drones. With some holographic theatre and a tree farm it's possible to overcome those two b-drones.

I don't understand how that's possible at first sight.
IIRC all psych production beyond double the base size is ignored. This means that a size 4 base can only use 8 psych.
So by psych you can only convert two b-drones over normal drones to two content workers. Add to that the HGP, and you get one talent and one worker. Where does the second talent come from? Am I missing something?

Edit: Never mind. I figured it out myself.