05-11-2003 22:45									#1
	What are we doing about Afghanistan? Got spare money?

Rebuilding is pretty much non-existent, or obviously way too slow. I think it's obvious, that we're not going to rebuild it very good. There is no infrastructure, Kabul is not in control, only in the daylight, and outside, not even at daylight..

I'm not sure, but I think US is still taking casualties there on weekly basis. Northern Alliance has shown it true skin, which is fundamentalist. Maybe not Taliban, but pretty close. Women are treated almost the same. They check women if they are virgins, just random picking from the streets if they are seen with a man who is not relative to that woman. They can't go to schools, well few can, but most of them are not allowed. There is no freedom of women in Afghanistan really. This is not on Americans, this is on Northern Alliance. They are not willing to see that, not now, not ever. They oppress people there pretty much 24/7. Warlords are mostly not in control and terrorists are not wiped out, but now have a welcomed breather..

And, Afghanistan is once again number one country of deporting opium, which is bought by criminals and heroin spreads to Europe, Russia.. everywhere.

So, what are we doing about this now? I think it's going to crappers right now and we can't continue like this.

My suggestion:

It's time to get tough right now when we still can make this work. Northern Alliance is BS. We should not be in bed with them for any longer, unless they start to change radically. We need to put a big pressure to the butthole warlords that are not playing for us, but for themselves or even the terrorists. We give them ultimatum, to start uniting, or to step down. If these demands are not met, we will force these SOBs to step down with humiliaton involved.

We pay the opium farmers some money, the same amount or more than the criminals buying it. They make crap money anyway, we can afford it. Then torch the opium fields. Start controlling the business and force criminals to move elsewhere to get their opium. It only hurts criminals and warlords.

We demand some kind of following of the basic human rights, that extends to women as well. If these are not met, anyone who is responsible for ordering such acts that violates it or does it, is to be sentenced to prison for a long time.

Start offensive against terrorists again. This time hardcore. Hunt them down, kill them until they die.

We try to make president Karzai the real leader of Afghanistan, whose power will be reckoned amongts the ranks of warlords. Recognize, step down or be stripped down with humiliation and force.

What are your thoughts? We need to step it up, we need to be desicive, and we need to get more countries to back it up. Let's get tough on these mofos!

	05-11-2003 22:56									#2
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that little fag (cigarrete) lord fat slimy pig rednose bleached little inbred sissy of NATO came to ask us to send our vicious fleet of next generation better than american Apache helicopters to Afganistan. But since it's elections time and the PM wants to appear "strong" in the eyes of the popolo he told him sorry we cant because we need them all here for the olympics. now go take a piss

wooooohoooo
(I really should cut down on the whiskey)

	05-11-2003 22:57									#3
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An analysis by both US and Russian/Soviet analysts about the reasons of failure of the SU to win that war led to the same results:

the use of small number of troops, not sufficient to control the entire country.
the use of heavy, mechanized infantry, instead of light, airborne infantry. The reason for this was the immense specialization that the red army strategy went to suit the European plain.

	05-11-2003 23:14									#4
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Who is this we, kemosabe?

	05-11-2003 23:20									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good luck. Once again, it proves you cannot change people's minds with force.

I agree with your post regarding Northern Alliance, treatment of women, etc. So if no one in Afghanistan is really ready for change, how will we accomplish that?

I say it China's turn next. The USSR failed, we may fail and if so, send the Red Army in. Afghanistan is like a corner in a big city which borders three or four police precincts. The Police captains do "rock, paper, scissors" to determine who's turn it is to police the bad part of town.

Edit: My grammer sucks. I'm buying a LeapPad learning book on the way home from work.

	05-11-2003 23:21									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Azazel, yes this is dangerous.. Media should pound with heavy hooks the people of all countries that could help them, because this is what SU did also. They had a victory, but it turned into crap after that.. few years after.. little by little.

I don't think Al Qaeda or who ever wants to challenge, that they really can challenge US the same way they challenged (Taliban) SU. Taliban was supported by US... there is no big supporters like that now. At least that we know of for sure. But it doesn't matter, because the situation in there doesn't mean would be better for the people there...

But it's turning into crap step by step, we need to intervene and stop it and hit back soon..
I can't help but see the biggest problem in warlords. I think we should give some rest for the terrorists (well not really, but some) to focus on these warlords. We need to investigate them. We need to see, that they don't only smile when we are face to face, but actually do what we agree, and not piss on our mouths when we fall asleep at night. We MUST NOT bribe them to do that. We must give them the choice to get their acts up, free of charge, or get beaten and humiliated, prisoned and never let them out again. They are the ones that can make this work, but they do not want it. So, **** them! Replace them with new ones. Someone we trust. Then provide security to those areas, backed up by tens of thousands of new soldiers. The US is pretty streched already, so we need someone else to help too.
We need to drive this through their thick skulls, because they're not getting it.

Do you know what someone says to you when they don't speak english good and can't understand you? They say 'yes' 'yes'.. .'yes yes'.. like mumbling idiots. Like these ****ing warpussylords.

	05-11-2003 23:22									#7
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che, we, the ones who are in some kind of agreement to help Afghanistan. Are you trying to pick up argument, that is not even relevant? It seems like it.

	05-11-2003 23:23									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I wasn't aware Finland was involved in Afganistan.

	05-11-2003 23:27									#9
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All I'm saying is, I supported this action and still do. It was needed. But it is justified and good action after Afghanistan is free and has a chance. We need to work on that.

	05-11-2003 23:28									#10
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che, So that means I can't comment on it? Or do you mean, I must use the word YOU? I like to say WE, because I SUPPORT this action.

And Finland IS involved in Afghanistan.

	05-11-2003 23:29									#11
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Maybe Finland can supply Afghan warloads with Nokia cell phones. That way they can start gossiping like teenage girls:

Warlord Abdul: Did you see that sweet burka in Kabul?

Warload Raji: That's nothing compared to the awesome burka I saw in Kandahar!!!

Warload Abdul: Yeah, whatever, do you have my opium?

Warload Raji: Sure, do you have my Nokia mobile phone chargers?

Warload Abdul: Hurry up. I have to go home to eat dirt.

	05-11-2003 23:32									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

problem about hunting down the terrorist hardcore is that soldiers (not only US but generally soldiers) go berzerk and kill and atleast destory civilians buildings etc. etc. look at vietnam and look up the stories about it in afganstan...i agree with you but well this is a bad side affect

	05-11-2003 23:33									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka che, So that means I can't comment on it? Or do you mean, I must use the word YOU? I like to say WE, because I SUPPORT this action. And Finland IS involved in Afghanistan.

Do you mean support by saying you think it's a good idea and you argue for it or do you mean support as in contributing something besides your mouth? I just wanna know. I'm paying for the war. All I hear from you is: Yay America! Granted, I believe we should be in Afganistan, given that the ****ers attacked us and massacred 3K people here. So I'm glad you agree with us. But until I see something a little more concrete from you, boyo, I don't want to hear "we" come out of your mouth again. We, i.e., you + I, aren't doing anything about Afganistan. We, i.e., the citizens of NATO, are.

Okay, I'm done with my nitpick.

	05-11-2003 23:35									#14
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Shogun Gunner,

DBTS, I don't know about the Vietnam.. They are not VC. And they don't have jungle that hides them so well. They are not armed so well. They are not as strong, and they are not so many as they were..

I don't mean going door to door searching for them.. I mean we need to get those warlords under control, to get the information flowing, so we can then get them. You see, they can't work without support. They need it, they need the warlords, and clearly they have the support.

	05-11-2003 23:38									#15
	Suffering from ads?

Technically, Finland is still involved. We have some soldiers there, most who are how do you say it.. observers though. And we are planning boosting it up. So I'm paying for it too.

And even if I weren't, I still have every right to have comment on it and say it. If you don't like it, fine, it's not like I'm living in country like Cuba, comrade.

Deal with it

	05-11-2003 23:39									#16
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Observers?

	05-11-2003 23:40									#17
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yes well to find them soldiers go door-to-door...i have heard stories about a area that was peacefull for 3 months and a lot was rebuild or was starting to work...then the soldiers came to look for terrorist when they left 3 month of work was destroyed...

	05-11-2003 23:44									#18
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che, Yes. That's all we can do, according our laws and resources right now. We're doing 100% of what we can/are allowed. I'm sorry, if 100% if not enough. I wish we really could do much more.

And all of this flies and misses the point of this whole thread anyway.

So, you pay some taxes. Remember, if there is monetary aid to Afghanistan etc etc, it's from my tax money if it's from EU or some other organisations. What's your point? That you pay 50 dollars more than me? Do you even realize how stupid that sounds? Are you now some kind of hero, the saviour of Afghanistan? Why don't you stop saying we too, and get your ass to Afghanistan, I'm sure recruiters will have a look at you, and then you can say that to me. Right?

	05-11-2003 23:50									#19
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And if you really want to be complicated about it, I buy American products all the time. Right now, I'm drinking Coke. Some of that money goes to that too.
My mom pays taxes there like everyone else, and I'm her son, so in theory, that gives me some voice, or then you must agree, that every kid in America can't say a word either, they aren't paying taxes, except from products, but so am I! And their parents are the ones really paying taxes, but so is mine! HHa!
And I assure you, that if it was possible for me to go there and join, I would in a heartbeat. Which is not what could be said of you, since you're not obviously going.

Anyway, don't you agree this is pretty much pointless? Argue about the issues, not one insignificant word.

	05-11-2003 23:57									#20
	Put an end to popups!

You can't change people's mind by pointing a gun at their heads. It takes time to ditch traditions.

	05-11-2003 23:58									#21
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Lord Merciless, agreed, but we could start from warlords. Theyt understand the gun point talk . Take it from there..

	05-11-2003 23:58									#22
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LM is probably right...but I totally agree with Pekka that it has to change...but what is the right way to do that?

	06-11-2003 00:01									#23
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right way.. who knows for sure. Sure is, that the place is not under control, and we (yes che, we) need to take it under control first..

	06-11-2003 00:05									#24
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che, accept my apologies.. I'm sorry. I got too heated.

	06-11-2003 00:09									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless You can't change people's mind by pointing a gun at their heads. It takes time to ditch traditions.

Right, that's essentially my point too.

Also, we can't go "door to door" there... perhaps "mud hut to cave entrance".

	06-11-2003 00:10									#26
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Shogun Gunner, no you can't go door to door.. that's why you take the warlords by the nuts and squeeze the information out. They know much more than they let us know.

	06-11-2003 00:12									#27
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As far as I understand it, the current idea seems to be to get some "safe" (errm better: relatively safe) zones like Kabul, and extent them slowly with the help of the UN and ISAF forces, with US troops remaining there to go against active resistors or taleban leftovers who show up for open fights. This would hopefully bring more stabilization, it would hopefully reduce slowly the power of the warlords, and maybe then there´s a chance of an economic change away from the drug business to a more "civil" economy.

As much as I hope this would work, there is absolutely no guarantee that it really will. And even if this works, it will be a long, painful, and expensive way, which would need long-term engagement of western countries in both military aspects and in giving financial aid -- an engagement that isn´t guaranteed either.

	06-11-2003 00:14									#28
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BeBro, that's the plan? Ok.. sounds ok to me. I didn't know about these plans.

I'm pleased. I hope it works in the longer term. Now, we need to get rid of those opium fields...

	06-11-2003 00:15									#29
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the problem with going after the warlords is they hold the population hostage. if civilians get hurt in the process you'll lose a lot of goodwill. just like in iraq

	06-11-2003 00:18									#30
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Gangerolf, true.. it's not as simple as I put it out.. I guess we could work on making those safe zones, give chance to warlord one by one, if they even think about taking the people hostage, we get them to safe zone if possible and get in there to take the lordies out. I don't know. What's the official plan on these guys? Or unofficial? The one that doesn't consider them friends?