Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Dubya signs anti-abortion bill
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (4): [ 1   2   3   4   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Dubya signs anti-abortion bill Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
Bush to sign anti-abortion measure
Associated Press


President Bush was to hand abortion opponents a victory sought through seven years of political battle Wednesday when he signed legislation that bans some abortions. But in a likely prelude of obstacles that linger, a federal judge in Nebraska sharply questioned the constitutionality of the legislation.

THE PRESIDENT'S SIGNATURE represents an end to a legislative crusade that began when Republicans captured the House in 1995. Former President Bill Clinton twice vetoed similar bills, arguing that they lacked an exception to protect the health of the mother.
But for abortion rights advocates, Bush's action simply moves the fight over a procedure opponents call "partial birth abortion" from Congress to the courts.

The bill forbids a procedure known as intact dilation and extraction, generally performed in the second or third trimester, in which a fetus is partly delivered before being killed, usually by having its skull punctured.

Aware of its backing among the religious conservatives that make up a key part of his base of political support, the president called the bill "very important legislation that will end an abhorrent practice and continue to build a culture of life in America" when it gained final congressional approval late last month.

Despite his strong anti-abortion credentials, Bush is also mindful of the more moderate voters he cannot afford to alienate.

So last week, during a news conference with reporters, he repeated a position he offered during his 2000 campaign, saying he would not seek a total ban on abortion because public opinion had not yet shifted to support such a move.

if (window.displayApp) displayApp(trimesterabortions);

NO EXCEPTION FOR WOMAN'S HEALTH
The legislation, which is similar to a Nebraska law the Supreme Court struck down three years ago, imposes the most far-reaching limits on abortion since the high court in 1973 established a woman's right to end a pregnancy.

It prohibits doctors from committing an "overt act" designed to kill a partly delivered fetus. There is no exception to the ban if the woman's health is at risk of if the child would be born with ailments.

Supporters argue that the bill applies only to a procedure done late in pregnancy -- and relatively rarely -- and that the procedure is never necessary to protect the health of the woman.

But abortion rights groups say the law has overly broad language that could criminalize several safe and common procedures, and they fault it for not providing an exception to protect a mother's health. They also fear that the law will represent the first step in a larger campaign to eventually bar all abortions.

As a result, opponents attacked it in three separate challenges even before it became law, with lawsuits filed Friday in federal courts in San Francisco; Omaha, Neb.; and New York City. Hearings were scheduled Wednesday on all three suits' request for temporary restraining orders that would block the law from taking effect.

In Lincoln, Neb., U.S. District Judge Richard Kopf indicated Wednesday that he had substantial concerns. "It seems to me the law is highly suspect, if not a per se violation of the Constitution," he said at the outset of his hearing.

Kopf said the congressional record of the debate of the bill did not reflect "an objective" presentation of the facts.

He also said the law appeared to have a "serious vagueness problem."

Planned Parenthood sued in San Francisco on behalf of the group and women seeking the type of abortions the law would ban, while the Center for Reproductive Rights filed in Omaha on behalf of physicians. The American Civil Liberties Union sought a similar order in New York.

OPPONENTS' STRATEGIES
Also Wednesday, an abortion rights group was airing a television ad that says Bush's signature would erode doctor-patient privacy rights and could represent his first step toward overturning a woman's right to end a pregnancy. The NARAL Pro-Choice America Foundation is spending nearly $500,000 to air ads in Washington, as well as Des Moines, Iowa, and Manchester, N.H., the sites of key early voting in next year's presidential contest.

And activists, organized by the National Organization for Women, were planning a protest outside the Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center, where Bush was to sign the bill.

"We won't stand by silently as this administration attempts to erode our rights," NOW President Kim Gandy said.

The new bill defines partial birth abortion as delivery of a fetus "until, in the case of a headfirst presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of the breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus."

Sponsors of the legislation say it is used about 2,200 times a year, principally during the 20th through 26th weeks of pregnancy.


© 2003 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

MSNBC Terms, Conditions and Privacy ©2003




http://www.msnbc.com/news/989539.asp?0cv=CA01

I think its a shame... ten men just got up on a podium and made a decision that should be between a woman and her doctor. This is also a step down that slippery slope because we all know that Bush and company are extremists who want all abortion banned, including rape, incest, medical necessity...

a sad day

GhengisFarb is offline GhengisFarb
Deity
I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:22 Visit GhengisFarb's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Its pretty much along the same lines as the ban on automatic firearms. Pretty much everyone agrees partial birth abortions are too extreme their only screaming about the decision because they claim its "just the start of a whole campaign" to eliminate all abortions.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:25
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Its pretty much along the same lines as the ban on automatic firearms. Pretty much everyone agrees partial birth abortions are too extreme their only screaming about the decision because they claim its "just the start of a whole campaign" to eliminate all abortions.
I disagree... I trust the medical community to make the correct decision. Physicians have taken an oath to protect life. These abortions... about 2,200 a year, sound very rare and are probably due to medical necessity to the woman.

I doubt woman go through 9 months of a pregnancy just to have an abortion. Opposition to this procedure, as with most things, is shrowded in ignorance and misinformation.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:29
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:34
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sava

Bush

Useless posts

Elok is offline Elok
Prince
Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:36
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd say is more in order, assuming the bill has provisions for the LIFE of the mother (not "health," which is easily bent). The whole filthy barbarous procedure has gone on too long. If abortion in general goes down the toilet with it, good riddance.

Jac de Molay is offline Jac de Molay
Prince
Detroit
Sep 2001
time: 05:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:38
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

I heard there's already three cases being brought before courts.

On the basis of no exceptions for women's health alone, it should be struck down.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:40
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Partial Birth Abortion is never a medically nessecary procedure.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:41
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Elok
If abortion in general goes down the toilet with it, good riddance.


Pun intended?

SpencerH is offline SpencerH
King
Co-Ruler of my patch of land south of Birmingham Alabama
Feb 2002
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:44
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

So far as I can tell, the only reason partial birth abortion was used at all was because the abortion hadnt been done earlier. There is no medical necessity. Even the women who testified before congress could have acted earlier but didnt bother. It is a demeaning procedure with no merit.

Medical oaths

Jac de Molay is offline Jac de Molay
Prince
Detroit
Sep 2001
time: 05:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
The whole filthy barbarous procedure has gone on too long.


I agree. The back-alley, coat hangar variety was always much more civil.

Edit: I'm also glad there's so many OB/GYNs who've popped in suddenly to define what is "medically necessary"

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Partial Birth Abortion is never a medically nessecary procedure.
you are wrong... and that's an ignorant statement.

SpencerH is offline SpencerH
King
Co-Ruler of my patch of land south of Birmingham Alabama
Feb 2002
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 00:58
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Please feel free to provide one link to one OB/GYN supporting partial birth abortion based upon a life threatening necessity. From the debate on the senate floor there wasnt one. Even the more strident dems didnt refute that.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:03
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Sava
you are wrong... and that's an ignorant statement.


I guess the American Medical Association must be ignorant too then.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:09
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

Well duh, that's impossible, because "partial birth abortion" isn't a medical term. It's propaganda created to horrorize medical procedures. There are thousands of later term abortions every year that are the result of a threat to the mother's life (i.e. high risk pregnancies). Because there is no medical term or procedure specified as "partial birth", there isn't documentation of such procedures.

That, BTW, is why in 2000, a similar Nebraska law was struck down. You can't ban a procedure that doesn't exist, and the language that was used in the legislation extended bans previously ruled unconstitutional.

This new ban isn't about a newborn being killed during birth. It covers medical procedures as early as 20 weeks.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:10
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi


I guess the American Medical Association must be ignorant too then.
they are because "partial birth abortion" is a non-existent procedure...

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

OK, Late Term pregnancies.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
time: 07:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:16 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

bush is a religious fundamentalist. at least maybe the irish americans catholics will be happy

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:20
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Disregarding Doctors
By P.G. Gandy

Most legislation moves through Congress without being much remarked on by those who do not consider themselves affected. While lobbyists cluster around offices after every conference, the average American goes about her daily life unperturbed.

So it appears to be with the reconciliation process between the House and Senate bills regarding a ban on specific abortion procedures. Groups like the Feminist Majority Foundation track the changes in language carefully, but the rest of us aren't paying attention. We should be.


The combination of doctors and "partial birth abortion," medically known as a dilation and extraction (D&X), makes the ban passed by the House deeply problematic.

Women do not come into a clinic saying, "I think I'll have a D&X instead of a D&E (dilation and evacuation) today." Abortion providers make that decision based on how the patient presents.


If the D&X seems less hazardous than a D&E would be, they choose the D&X because of the imperative of "do no harm" -- or, as it has been revised for surgery (due to the necessity of incisions), "do no more harm than good." If the D&E appears to be suitable, it is performed.


A woman wakes up from the anesthesia and only knows the difference if the D&E went wrong and the additional introductions of medical instruments into the woman's body, or the broken bones of the fetus, have perforated her uterus or vagina.


If this ban becomes law, it will remove medical judgment completely. The House of Representatives has decided, against the advice of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, that D&X is never medically necessary.


Of course it isn't medically necessary -- almost always, if you can do a D&X, you can do a D&E. The problem is that D&X sometimes is medically preferable, when it poses less danger to the patient than the alternative procedure does.


The other PR problem with this ban, which probably is what got the American Medical Association to oppose it, is that it puts criminal penalties on doctors who use a safer procedure if they think it is indicated. Two years of prison.


This is a mistake by the House. Had I been such a conscienceless moron as to write this legislation, I would have made the penalty the immediate and permanent revocation of the physician's medical license.


A doctor who loses his license is a disgraced person, not even a proper doctor anymore; a doctor in prison for doing his duty as a physician by providing the best treatment is a martyr, a rallying cry, a cause celebre.


But the anti-choice advocates have won the naming battle, no doubt about that, and in the process have further muddied public understanding of the procedure.
"Partial Birth" implies that the fetus being aborted by the procedure is viable, i.e. capable of being born and surviving instead of being dead shortly after removal from the uterus, when generally it is no such thing.


People who hear about D&X vs. D&E can't figure out why one procedure is being banned while the other remains legal. There is a kind of symbolic difference in that D&X has the fetus partially removed from the uterus, while D&E has it die entirely inside the woman's body.


But the fetus is no closer to a viable birth regardless of which procedure is used; the only practical difference is the woman's health. We now know where Congress's priorities are: symbolism over safety.
http://www.ospolitics.org/healthenv/archives/2003/09/25/disregardi.php

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists is against the banning of the D&X procedure that is in question. http://www.acog.org/

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:22
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

Even as a pro-choice proponent, I'm pleased that a law that will prohibit

.... in which a fetus is partly delivered before being killed, usually by having its skull punctured....

has been signed. WHATEVER THEY CALL IT.


I don't see it as slipping down the slope. I see it as prohibiting an inhumane form of abortion.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote:
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) continues to oppose state or federal legislation known as so-called "partial birth abortion" bans. "Partial birth abortion" is a non-medical term apparently referring to a particular abortion procedure known as intact dilatation and extraction (intact D&X, or D&X), a rare variant of a more common midterm abortion procedure know as dilatation and evacuation (D&E).

In June 2000, the US Supreme Court struck down a Nebraska "partial birth abortion" law in the case of Stenberg v. Carhart, ruling that the law violated the US Constitution by (1) failing to provide any exception "for the preservation of the health of the mother," and (2) being so broadly written that it could prohibit other types of abortion procedures such as D&E, thereby "unduly burdening a women's ability to choose abortion itself."
from http://www.acog.org/from_home/publi.../nr02-13-02.cfm

the fact is, this decision should be left to the doctors, not some corrupt politician trying to pander to the extremists on the right...

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:25
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/Sprang.htm

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:26
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

quote:
Originally posted by rah
Even as a pro-choice proponent, I'm pleased that a law that will prohibit

.... in which a fetus is partly delivered before being killed, usually by having its skull punctured....

has been signed. WHATEVER THEY CALL IT.


I don't see it as slipping down the slope. I see it as prohibiting an inhumane form of abortion.

It's not an "inhumane" form of abortion. Read up on the differences between D&X and D&E abortions. D&X (so called "partial birth") procedures are only done when their is a health risk to the mother of doing the internal procedure.

Rah, please don't fall victim to the scare and horror campaign these pro-life nuts are waging.

MikeH is offline MikeH
Emperor
Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
time: 05:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:26 Visit MikeH's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by rah
Even as a pro-choice proponent, I'm pleased that a law that will prohibit

.... in which a fetus is partly delivered before being killed, usually by having its skull punctured....

has been signed. WHATEVER THEY CALL IT.


I don't see it as slipping down the slope. I see it as prohibiting an inhumane form of abortion.


Yeah, it's already banned here IIRC possibly excepting situations where it's to save the mother's life... not sure on that.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:27
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Step 1
Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grasps the baby's leg with surgical forceps.




Step 2
The abortionist inverts the baby's into breach position, and then pulls her into the birth canal.



Step 3
The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head. He takes a pair of metzenbaum scissors, and jams them into the base of the baby's skull. He opens the scissors to form a hole, inserts a suction catheter, and removes the baby's brain.





Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:29
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Shi: well the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, representing over 40,000 OBGYN's across the country disagrees with your assertion that the procedure isn't ever a medical necessity

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:30
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

yes, it's not a pretty procedure... but IT IS ONLY DONE TO SAVE THE WOMAN'S LIFE

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

Donate to the Red Cross
Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:31 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Typical sava troll... "Dubya signs anti-abortion bill", tries to make it look like Bush has signed a bill eliminating all abortions instead of just one brutal version that most people can agree is wrong.

Your trolls are getting boring Sava...

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

And the American Medical Association, which represents the Medical community as a whole, agrees with my assertion.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:31
  Old Post 06-11-2003 01:34
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by Ming
Typical sava troll... "Dubya signs anti-abortion bill", tries to make it look like Bush has signed a bill eliminating all abortions instead of just one brutal version that most people can agree is wrong.

Your trolls are getting boring Sava...
what troll? that's the title of the MSNBC article... write them and complain about the troll

edit: oh yeah, I replaced Bush with Dubya...

 
Pages (4): [ 1   2   3   4   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:31.
Apolyton Time is 00:31.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0648 seconds (91.29% PHP - 8.71% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net