07-11-2003 21:57									#1
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the following was forwarded to met from Cort Haus of Gathering Storm:

quote: Dear Gathered Storms, Seems there is a breakthrough decision lying ahead both of us and you in the game. We feel we should make it clear where we stand and what our intentions are with respect to the current situation. Considering all the fuss and ill will about past public "manifests", we would like to let you know in private only. We are sending you our "message" in two versions. Both basically mean the very same, but side by side, they probably better fit the purpose of conveying a "serious message" in a "game played for fun". First, the version "with a British foreign office slant" (as redstar1, its author, put it): quote: Our dearest chums of Gathering Storm, After having a chat with some of the chaps across the sea, its been pointed out that you have a jolly large force somewhere near Yellowknife. Far be it for us to interfere but we have to say that we aren't quite tip-top with the idea of you having a picnic so close to GoW's back yard. In fact, we are afraid to say that its really just not on old boy. We do believe that we still have a common interest as well as a lucrative trade deal. Were you to start a bit of a scrap up north then we would really have to rethink. I'm sure you understand we can't really do deals with anyone we don't think is sound. In short, we'd like you to have a think about the old gameplan. If you want a cup of tea and a chat just let us know. Yours Imperiously, Lego And the more "formal" version that would, sent alone, probably sound harsher than we'd intend it to sound. quote: Honourable Nation of Gathering Storm, It has been brought to our attention that a strong force of your War Chicken in full arms just recently landed on the Eastern coast of Bob, roughly South of Yellowknife. Although we can naturally not be sure about the plans and intentions of your generals, we feel the only reason for such a force to land there would be an attack at the "homeland" cities of GoW and ND. We are sorry to inform you that if such an attack was to happen or become imminent, we would consider it an act threatening Legoland's long-term interests, and as such would cause our nations to enter the state of war, with the inevitable consequences for our current trade deals, with no further warning. Respectfully, The Senate of Legoland We would like to stress that our position at the moment is driven by our long-term goals and plans, not by any grudges we'd hold against your team. Under different circumstances, we might find ourselves on your side of the barricade. Legoland

	07-11-2003 22:14									#2
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[rant]
If I could get my hands around the neck of one of these Legoland *******s I'd squeeze so tight that his cheese-filled little head popped off.

This goddamned war has nothing to do with their "long term interests" if they were smart enough to just play both sides, stay neutral, and win the game on their own from their peaceful island paradise. Instead, they seem to think that since Vondrack has promised to be GoW's *****es, they have to do whatever Vondrack says.

If they get involved and RP/GS lose this war, it's going to be only Legoland, ND, and GoW. When all of the enemies are dead, allies turn against each other.

Maybe Legoland thinks they can get tight with GoW and beat ND. If they think that, they're stupid. ND is the smarter and more powerful of the two, and GoW knows it. GoW has already sold their soul to ND. When this war is over, they're going to side with their lord and masters, not with the blockheads from overseas.

I hate legoland. I think I hate them more now than GoW.

--Togas

	07-11-2003 22:18									#3
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sent the following to GS:

quote: Cort Haus, This is the most infuriating thing I have read in months. The only way this war can be won is if we bring the war to the homes of the enemy. This threat by Legoland cannot deter GS, but it is more than troubling, it's absurd. Legoland's "long term interests" don't mean a damn thing to us, and if they cause any further problems we will happily declare war on them and remain in a state of war with them until our very last city is destroyed. Let those short-sighted, sniveling, arrogant blockheads rot in their own war weariness. We remain at the ready to do whatever we can to help. --Togas

	07-11-2003 23:54									#4
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Screw peace! GS need to just go around Lego forces or confront them. I think Lego is basically bluffing to give GoW more time to prepare for this landing that so surprised them. Lego still wants this war to end in a draw, but I fear that they think GS has the upperhand with this Northern landing. This is the time for GS to act and not to cower. GS'es homeland cannot be in danger; they are simply to powerful for that.

	08-11-2003 00:10									#5
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Please read the exchange in the Diplomacy thread between myself and Arrian.

Arrian believes they cannot beat the Lego forces in the north and fears setting off their GA in the process ... which is probably what Lego actually wants.

--Togas

	08-11-2003 01:54									#6
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Cab they send some screen shots? What kind of forces do Lego have up North? If GS is just going to give up on saving RP and going after GoW and ND, then they have lost the game. Ther's no way in hell GS can compete against 3 teams. Their only chance is to help us regain our part of Bob and for them to settle down South in it as well.

If they back off from the confrontation now, the game is over for both RP as GS.

	08-11-2003 02:26									#7
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If they don't back off, the game is over too. If they fight Legoland, GoW, AND ND at the same time, they won't win.

Let's be honest. We cannot fight GOW or ND. We don't have the firepower to do it. GS has to split their power between protecting us and fighting ND/GoW/Lego. It's a battle they probably can't win.

But then again, is there any hope for either of us to win? At this point, with Legoland, GoW, and ND so closely aligned the game is decided.

Call me a pessimist, but I'm very close to requesting that we call the game and end this hatefest. It started out as a fun game, but it's stagnated into an unwinable situation with the locked alliances.

--Togas

	08-11-2003 02:33									#8
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Instead of calling it, lets have GS test the RNG. They may get lucky for a round or two. War Weariness may start to hurt GoW and ND. There are many reasons to keep up the good fight.

How much can Lego fight? How many units do they have on Bob? How does GS know it's not a bluff?

	08-11-2003 04:17									#9
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I doubt that Legoland is after their GA here... Legoland's GA would be more easily achieved through wonders.

Legoland (or at least Vondrack and company) really are of the opinion that they need to help GoW in this war.

It's an open question whether we (RP and GS) want to confront Legoland and face their forces in the north or whether we want to try to fight to a stalemate in the south.

I'm tempted to play the line that we (RP) inform Legoland that it is our intention that if they at any point attack GS forces in the north, RP and GS will cancel all luxury deals with Legoland and declare war upon her, a war which for RP Team will last in perpetuity, preventing Legoland from maintaining a Democratic or Republican government for as long as an RP city remains anywhere on the board.

Legoland can choose whether or not to interfere in this war or not. If they choose to fight for Glory of War, they can accept the consequences of that decision. If they remain neutral, we can continue to respect their neutrality.

This potential course of action would of course need to be discussed with Gathering Storm before we embarked on it. That said, I think it's time we let Legoland know that if they're going to actively assist Glory of War in the war, we can no longer afford to respect their neutrality. It's time to play hardball.

	08-11-2003 04:24									#10
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As for other things, I'm back in circulation. I'd be more than willing to be the one to, as diplomatically as possible, deliver the news to Legoland if we plan to offer them that threat and carry through on it should Legoland militarily involve themselves in the war.

btw.... we desperately need to set up a chat with Gathering Storm to discuss both this issue and the overall military situation.

	08-11-2003 04:41									#11
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A hardline approach to Lego....

I wonder what I've been saying all these weeks...

	08-11-2003 04:44									#12
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I'll also bet that Lego is near to finishing the Sistine and they are not really so concerned with Luxes anymore, GoW and ND have likely promised them all on Bob.

	08-11-2003 05:09									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I'm tempted to play the line that we (RP) inform Legoland that it is our intention that if they at any point attack GS forces in the north, RP and GS will cancel all luxury deals with Legoland and declare war upon her, a war which for RP Team will last in perpetuity, preventing Legoland from maintaining a Democratic or Republican government for as long as an RP city remains anywhere on the board.

Legoland is playing very rude and they have played unfairly during all the game. They have deceived us, pretending that they were neutral while they were helping GoW and ND. They give no choice but to play as rude as them. They have a lot more to lose in a perpetual war than us.

Also, if GS don't attack on GoW/ND homeland, GS cannot win the game. So their only chance is to try. I really doubt that Lego has so big war force, and even if they have such force, their continent is farter than Estonia. They simply cannot bring reinforcements as quickly as GS, even if they produce them.

I say that before giving up we try at least to spoil them. Let's go to world war and see what happens.

	08-11-2003 05:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA I say that before giving up we try at least to spoil them. Let's go to world war and see what happens.

Most definately. The game is lost to Lego/GoW/ND otherwise.

	08-11-2003 05:21									#15
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Also, remember that ND Golden Age is over. One less thing to care about. We really should ask GD to let us horses during one turn and build knights to attack ND and get back some (many or few) cities or at least destroy them.

Also, we could build a settler in Barcelona and build a city inside our current borders, using GS building patterns. Barcelona is not growing anyway and we will have another production center. We should become something like berserk warmongers. We should live only for war.

	08-11-2003 05:36									#16
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We don't have the production for war, and even if we build 4 knights, we'd lose them in the first conflict that we got into. The large stacks involved in this game demand that we have very large #s of pikes for defense, and soon the cannons and cavalry will arrive and render our defenses asunder unless we find saltpeter.

I agree, though, that we must talk to GS about future plans and possibilities.

I also STRONGLY agree that Arnelos should diplomatically give those Legoland ****ers our ultimatium.

And if they do fight GS, we give them endless WW. I'd like to see their democracy collapse.

--Togas

	08-11-2003 06:06									#17
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I´d like to see their heads colapse from their bodies, but this unfortunately seems impossible :/ .
The F*ckers.... let me count, they disregarded a Favored Nation status, they ignored a mutual protection treaty... seems to be that diplomacy means even less when playing against humans. Sons of a b*tch.
I don´t know, it would be good to bloody them, but I really am not sure we can last long. Anyway, it has been a great pleasure to play with great people such as you. Great organizers like OliverFA, great leaders like Togas, skillfull diplomats like Arn, great generals like BigFree and Dejon, magnificent roleplayers like History Guy and Aidun, good chaps and lurkers like pikesfan and many others who went idle during this game... (we even have builders and road planners in here, like E_T and astrologix!) and many others whose names fail my weak memory right now.
Guys, it has been a pleasure to play this, now let us get ready for our final trip and cut as many b*tts as possible, leaving this situation as best as possible for GS, the only ones who honoured an agreement with us (these proud chickens of war!).
Avante España!!!

	08-11-2003 06:18									#18
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Hey Nuc, this isn't over yet... Never give up, never surrender!

But you bring an interesting point. If it's better for GS that we play a "kamikaze" role we could think about doing it. Anyway, I honestly believe that we are more useful for GS alive than dead. We just need to give up any hope that Lego will ever remotely come to our side, not wait a single minute to declare war to them. The longer we prolongue negotiations the more they win. Let's declare war with the next save, let's make them feel we are very serious. If they change their mind we can make peace. But now it's time to act!

I agree with king Togas that 4 knights won't be much useful right now. But what I was thinking about is to make a plan for the middle term. GS has landed some troops that will last a bit. We need to be prepared to reinforce them when their loses are big. We cannot think about great plans, but even if we can conquer/raze/defend one single city, this is one less city for GS to care about. Of course, coordinating this with GS would be even better.

And for our diplomats... I suggest that they devote their efforts to bring Vox to our side. We (GS/RP) have higher chances with them than with Lego. After all, if I'm not mistaken, GS treated Vox well when they lost. At Lego's side Vox will be not much, but at GS's side, Vox can be an active partner. For starting they can do 40 turn tech research like we are doing for them. And they can do also their little effort. I don't say that is liekly that they will switch sides, but I see the chances a lot higher that Lego will ever do something remotely good for us.

	08-11-2003 06:22									#19
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(continuation from the last post)

I don't know how many troops Lego have in Bob, but I really doubt they can have much troops. And even if they have much troops, their ships have to do a longer trip than GS's troops to reinforce them.

I think this can be a chance for the rebirth of Spain. We will win... or we will die in the fight. But they will not have us easily. How many of we thought that Pamplona would stand? But she is still alive and well! This is a prove that we have a chance, which is better than nothing.

	08-11-2003 06:37									#20
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Arnelos, I like your idea!

If GS doesn't attack then we have lost. I suppose Lego is afraid of GS taking over the north... GS could become too powerful for them.

I say: death to GoW! after that death to ND! and finally death to Lego!!!!

	08-11-2003 15:52									#21
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I support all your war and diplomatic ideas, guys

No surrender ! Death to GoW/ND/Lego

	08-11-2003 20:44									#22
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So has Lego been actively helping GoW the whole time?

If so, then, to butcher a saying: the friend of my enemy is my enemy.

	08-11-2003 20:45									#23
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So has Lego been actively helping GoW the whole time?

If so, then, to butcher a saying: the friend of my enemy is my enemy.

As someone who is really puzzled about everything, and not yet angry, I would really like to talk to vonD about everything. This is likely just me dreaming, though.

	08-11-2003 20:56									#24
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I honestly think that "negotiations" with Lego can be maintained despite us declaring war next turn. Even more, I think that our war declaration will show that we are serious and improve our position in the negotiations table.

Right now, our relation with Lego has been lots of talking but absolutely no actions. They have had plenty of chances to show us their good willings and have failed to do. On the contrary, the facts prove that they are acting against us. The peition to GS of not attacking GoW homeland is a direct attack against us. If GS don't attack we cannot win the war. So, why give them still a chance, a hope?

If you have followed my posts from the beginning of the game you will know by now that I am not a warmonger type, but now it's the only way to go. Our only chance to survive, or to die with honour and dignity.

DIE LEGO DIE!!!

	09-11-2003 01:39									#25
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Those filthy swine. Well, we're dead anyway, so I would declare war on the bounders. Yes, I know that we haven't the slightest chance of surviving. We probably won't make it to 1000 AD. After all we have done for those vile savages, their betrayal makes my blood boil. I have only one arm, it is true, and my body is covered with wounds, but I would fight those traitors until they had drained every drop of blood from this old body.

Lord Toledo
A Man of Spain

	09-11-2003 03:18									#26
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1000 AD... the year by wich our mutual protection pact should expire... how ironic that lego disregarded it all from the start.

	09-11-2003 04:23									#27
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I'll try to have one more talk to them, this is really weird. I was cordial towards Lego after all failed efforts and empty promisses, but this is amazing. I'm not the man to declare war on them, not even at this stage, because it will lead to our downfall.
I'll do my best for one more talk in which they have to assure me that they take back what they did and in which I will warn them to not so openly show their alliance to GoW and ND.
I want a blank cheque of Legoland that they will not harm any troops of our alliance and anything less is not enough. I want them to allow us or GS to declare war if we think such an action is needed to achieve our goal of attacking GoW's or ND's ownings. With anything less I will not be satisfied.

Diomingo Cian
"How sad that I have to see these things happen at my old age."

	09-11-2003 06:00									#28
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We have been (maybe we still are) in our downfall. Our only chances to survive pass by spoiling Legoland as much as we can.

	04-12-2003 03:13									#29
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Needless to say, I hate Vondrack and he hates me. After I mentioned in the forum that he hates us more than half of GoW he wrote me a bitter PM, I wrote him back, he wrote me, I wrote him back ...

Anyhow. In the midst of it all my point is that his and my animosity is the problem between our nations and that I would agree to quit if he also quit.

He continues to argue that his personal feelings have nothing to do with Legoland foreign policy, but he also said:

quote: I do not know who it is telling you things from our forum, but there was and is not a single Legosupporting "making friends with RP again" (and to prevent misunderstanding: it's not a matter of "hatred" anymore, but a matter of having ties and relations with other teams that do not really allow making friends with you again, or at least not now). Frankly, we do not care what happens to you... if you die, you die. If you survive in Northern Stormia or some part of Bob, you survive there. We care not. It's GoW, ND, & GS we care about. Those are our competitors and those are the teams we adjust our foreign policy to.

note: He bolded those words in his PM.

Take it as you will, but I need to know for myself that there were legolanders who were in favor of reestablishing ties. I told him that flat out. Please tell me that I was right and that he's a d*ck.

--Togas

	04-12-2003 06:56									#30
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I rember reading that there were Lego's "saying" that they were in favor...but those could have been just diplomatic lies to appease whom ever attempted to get Lego to see our side of things. That said, each team is doing whateverit can to see if they can't win this game. The only exceptions to this is that it seems GoW, along with Vox, is set to help Lego win and RP is set to help GS win. ND is still trying to win it for themselves but they won't since GoW is aligned with Lego. I don't see things changing much over time. Unless GS charges ahead and attacks with good luck against GoW and Lego in the North of Bob, then they don't have a chance to win either. Lego is going to win this thing and we are not a player in this at this time.