09-11-2003 09:19									#1
	After the war... Support Apolyton

Assuming there is an end to this war:

1) If it ends with our destruction and excile to north Estonia, there is little we will do, we just find ways to help GS.

2) If GS finds a way to cripple GoW and get past Legoland, and earn a great victory, we may yet win this war and all of our plans from the early stages happen. We split Bob, we rise together to beat the crap out of Legoland.

3) We settle on a peace deal with GoW/ND.

Now, none of us have really given much thought to agreeing to peace. We hate GoW with so much passion that we've pretty much ruled out any chance of peace. However, I'm going to breathe some life into the thought once more and present a theory to the team that I invite you to argue or agree with.

Point 1: GoW/ND/Legoland are allied. Their alliance appears to be stronger than our diplomacy can break. We cannot get them to turn against one another.

Point 2: Their alliance will hold until it's purpose runs out ... namely, the fight against GS & RP.

I have seen in many MANY games. Alliances last until the purpose of the alliance is done. Consider the many lessons we have in history of allies and enemies changing sides after wars have ended and new regimes and new issues come into play.

If GoW and ND decide that their war against us is over, and we can get them to agree to peace with us and peace with GS, AND they keep their word (if not, we just go back to being at war again), then they have to decide who to fight next.

Being that ND and GoW are pretty friendly ... and Legoland doesn't have any friends, Gow & ND could invade Legoland.

Being as Legoland has troops in GoW territory, and they've been friendly with GoW, they may combine to take out ND.

Being as Legoland MIGHT be smart (very doubtful) and see the overwhelming advantage they have with troops in GoW territory, they may side with ND to WIPE OUT GoW in one quick slew.

All of this, of course, could only happen if they believed that GS and RP were not longer a threat. They're competative by nature. One of those three is going to make a move. Assuming we're not the victims again, we would suddenly become a major player. Both sides would court us and if we play it right, we could both get our land back, AND punish one of the nations that attacked us.

I'm of the opinion that we cannot win this war. Let us get what we can from it, and set ourselves up to get in the next war and become a major power once again.

--Togas

	09-11-2003 09:33									#2
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I largely agree with your assessment of the situation, but I think we REALLY need to have a joint chat with GS to jointly plan the future. Ultimately, our teams are in this together and what we can do to potentially win the game is what this is all about.

I'm more than willing to end the war with GoW and ND if we have a shot at then causing the GoW/ND/Lego alliance to crumble.

	09-11-2003 13:27									#3
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We have no shot at ending the GoW/Lego alliance. ND will be assed out by Lego and GoW. GoW (MZ) has stated that he (GoW) will do whatever it takes to make sure Lego wins. He figures GoW can claim a partial victory this way by claiming that they were acting as Mercenaries for Lego the whole time and just needed to pick the right time to do Lego's bidding against ND.

This is an idea we may get ND to respond to...

We just get ND to believe that GoW will back stab them on the basis that GoW is acting as Mercenaries for Lego and nothing more. Add to that that GoW feels totally satisfied with a Lego win.

	09-11-2003 14:05									#4
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ND is not going to believe us until GoW stabs them in the back.

At that point, RP, GS, and ND join together to fight GoW/Lego.

I think we'd have a much better chance of victory in that alliance than we do now. We just have to allow it to happen.

--Togas

	09-11-2003 16:52									#5
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They have never honoured their word and they won't do it now.

If they want to settle peace with us is just because they have suffered great loses.

Lego's message to GS is a great bluff. Come on, I will say it again. Lego's continent is much much distant from Bob than Stormia, plus GS's ships are faster. How many troops can Lego really send to protect GoW? Even if they have many of them now, it's unlikely they will be able to reinforce much quickly.

If Lego/GoW/ND were sure that they could win GS, they wouldn't send such message. They would just attack. They are just trying to earn time. They are playing poker trying to show that they have much better cards than they really have.

	09-11-2003 17:11									#6
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The more this game runs the more I have the feeling that we are loosing this game because we try to win with words instead with the guns or with a real economic/scientific power.

Togas, Arnelos, Aidun, the diplomatic ways are over. GoW, ND and Lego have understand that our weakness is that our words are empty, and that we try to win this game with empty words. Against that they oppose the real things : the guns.

We can't continue this way : IMO they will continue to fight until we are out of this game. This is only a matter of time. We must continue this war with GS against them until we (RP) are eliminated or win.

Sorry about my english. I hope you'll understand what I'm trying to say...

	09-11-2003 17:31									#7
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I agree with Astrologix. Diplomacy is a powerful tool, but the key is not to abuse this tool. One of the most famous quotes from Civilization is:

quote: Our words are backed with NUCLEAR weapons!

which in RP version would be:

quote: Our words are backed with NO weapons

	09-11-2003 21:47									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I have a risky plan in mind to try to get a great leader for us, but IŽd need all the info we can get on the northern jungle area.

	09-11-2003 22:35									#9
	Support Apolyton

When will we stop thinking that our enemy is rational? Don't you see that there is not a single bit of ratuionality in the way they act?

"Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men, doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne,
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them,
in the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."

"Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominition of the One, and they became Ringwraights, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants."

"But the hearts of men are easily corrupted, one by one they fell for his promises."

This war was started by ND and GoW out of jealousy and contunued by hatred. I mentioned it a few times in the public forum. Jealousy because we were so succesful. W had a team in which everything seemed to go fine. We had a lot of fun with the roleplay, we had a nice land with lots of luxuries and well-suited for building up a powerful nation.

ND promised GoW a nice part on Bob, knowing that the warmongers desired that most of all. And so they won the warmongers for themselves. But while ND and GoW expected that they would easily overrun RP, we did something that was, in their view the least likely: we allied with GS. While ND and GoW expected us to be on bad terms with GS, they miscounted diplomacy. So the stalemate was achieved instead of total destruction, which was the original goal of ND, out of, right again: jealousy, over the nice lands we were in habiting.
Because of the stalemate ND could not achieve its goal and it sought a new way: Legoland. Possibly knowing from perhaps GoW that relations between Legoland and us where always a bit troublesome, they tried to win Legoland for them by promising those things Legoland desired most: luxuries, Spanish luxuries and safety against Gathering Storm, the greatest fear of Legoland. And so they won also Legoland for themselves.

If Legoland sticks to blocking GS, the war will end this way:
With help of Legoland ND and GoW will win Bob for themselves.
They will then possibly continue until GS is severely weakened or totally defeated, or they will together attack Legoland, believing that Legoland would never ally with GS, the nation they fear most. Legoland will curse themselves that they have not listened to wise Spanish words, but at that time it will be too late for them.
After the alliance ND-GoW gaines victory over every other team, they will go into war with each other on the in itiative of GoW because GoW finally smells their chance of backstabbing ND, but then it will be too late for them because ND expected it already.
The game will end in a victory for ND because they betrayed one nation after another and won nations for themselves with false and empty promises.

With those who now say that we made a mistake with conducting diplomacy, I do not agree. We made a mistake on mistaking humans for computers and thinking that experienced civ3 players would do better than jealous kings and greedy emperrors that made the real world what it now is. No my dear teammates, they are all the same humans: when they smell power, they become jealous and greedy and desire more.

We did not have empty words or words backed with no weapons, we have always had a reasonable army that was equal against most other armies, that was the best we could gamewise do. A superbig army would be unbearable for the economy and a small one would have provided too less defensive power.

But as I explained long ago, you cannot make analyses, supposing that people will act irrational, because acting irrational will mean that there as hundreds of possible ways to act irrational, so the best assumption you can make is to suppose they will act rational, because there are but few ways to act rational and only on those few you can base your strategy. That, my dear teammates who thing we have done wrong, is politics, and you see that it is a difficult game to play.

Aidun

Last edited by Aidun on 09-11-2003 at 23:10

	09-11-2003 22:56									#10
	Remove this text

I was not trying to blame anyone for the present situation. My apologies if it looked like this. What I am just saying is that right now the chance for diplomacy is gone. Diplomats can play a much better role trying to convince GS to continue the war. Thing that shouldn't be completely impossible because the best interest of GS is to continue the war. Specially now that all their knights are knocking GoW's door. Are they going to send the knights back to stormia and wait until they get obsolete? They would have wasted a great quantity of production acting that way.

If diplomats still want a challenge, then try to convince Vox to side with us. This, though unlikely, is still much more probable than convincing Lego themselves.

	09-11-2003 23:18									#11
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I totally agree with Seńor OliverFA

	10-11-2003 06:05									#12
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quote: Originally posted by astrologix I totally agree with Seńor OliverFA

And I agree with astrologix.

	10-11-2003 06:29									#13
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Agreed. Diplomacy is pointless right now as no one is changing sides in the current conflict.

If GS wants to continue to fight, good. We'll continue to support them. But with Arrian sending me PMs about an "exit strategy" from the war, we need to be realistic. If they determine this war is over, then I need a commitment from our team that we'll go along with it and plan for the next one.

--Togas

	10-11-2003 14:25									#14
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Let's first negotiate with the enemy so see how they think about it. I have requested Sharpe and Nimitz to bring over the message to GoW, which, I suppose, will be done soon. If not we can simply not play the turn until the negitiations have passed with success or not.

During the negotiations I have demanded that no turn will be done as that would disadvantage us

You see there is plenty of time to think and talk about the future.

I'll inform you here that the way I'm reasoning now is that I will not accept any agreement in which we loose what we have now. Pamplona will NOT be given to the enemy before its moats are filled with enemy blood!

Aidun

	10-11-2003 15:12									#15
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I agree that Pamplona should not be given away without a fight. Especially after so much blood has been spent defending it, it's an INSULT for Glory of War to ask us to now give it away after they couldn't take it by force of arms.

We're willing to deal if we can keep Pamplona (for now).

	12-11-2003 08:47									#16
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I am not very happy to post this image, but as leader of Spain I must.

This is the area that Aggie has offered for us to keep in a peace agreement.

quote: Here is a map of my main idea for RP land after the peace agreement. There is still debate in my forum about this map. But this eems likely to be the offer if it is made. The grey hatched areas are possible additions to your area. The blue is they area I am pretty sure we could get. Also note it is possible to extend the area south along the coast but that might best be a topic for later.

--Togas

	12-11-2003 11:15									#17
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We offer a one-word answer: no

Considering this is coming from GoW it's not THAT bad as a FIRST offer, but GoW can do better than that.

	12-11-2003 12:39									#18
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Screw that deal with GoW!!!

GS has reported that they are close to an agreement with GoW regarding peace and RP. I've been givien clues abotuu it by OctavianX, possibly on mistake on his behalf. Let me explain.

GoW, it seems, has a contract with someone (maybe ND or someone else). This contract requires them to "remove" RP from Bob. This can be done with some trickery.

Turn 1: We gift all cities to GS, except for Pamplona, which we can't becasue it's our Capitol. We then move troops out of Pamplona and let GS take it over. GS has to declare war on us for this to happen. A Palace "jump" takes place and we have a new Palace on Stormia.

Turn 2: A turn goes by and RP is seen as "removed" from Bob. GS decalres peace and gifts back all of our cities. (we won't get them back till the next turn, but the rest of teams see RP gone from Bob.

Turn 3: On the next turn, GS declares war again, and captures the city on Stormia that has the new Palace and then, viola, we have our Palace back on Bob again.


The reason to do this is to remove GoW from their current 'contract' and allow them to make a new one with another team, perhaps GS.

Let me know what you guys think of this.

	12-11-2003 12:45									#19
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Eh.. then EVERY single one of our cities on the regifted Bob will be defenseless? What is to stop ND from just storming right back over us creating an easy defeat? They didn't fall for the gifting trickery with GS the first time we tried it.

No to their proposal. If they want peace, they will either have to do A LOT better... or kill us.

	12-11-2003 12:46									#20
	Remove this text

In fact, here is my proposal to GoW... let me know if you want me to send this to them:



Everything to the right of the blue area will go to GoW. In return, they will gift us their entire empire. Only then will we accept peace.

	12-11-2003 12:47									#21
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RP and GS play inbetween ND and GoW. We just move units out of cities, then move them right back in before ND and GoW can react. This has to be coordinated with GS, but I'm sure we can do it safely.

	12-11-2003 13:07									#22
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I don't agree BegFree. It's not serious

This kind of things are out of my Civ concept. IMO we should not play a Circus game. No, no, no.

I prefer to die fighting.

	12-11-2003 16:33									#23
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Why can't GoW just violate the stupid contract? They've certainly violated other agreements... I can't see it really hurting their reputation, as everyone was already aware that any agreement with GoW is worth only the ink on the paper its written on if their interests become contrary to it...

	12-11-2003 20:20									#24
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I agree with Arnelos, I have little trust in contracts made with GoW. I prefer to fight GoW.

Aidun

	13-11-2003 01:56									#25
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In fact, why trust in a NEW contract with GoW? They will be happy to break it and backstab us as soon as possible. In fact GS are mad if they want to make a deal with GoW...

	13-11-2003 03:52									#26
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We have to trust GS. Period. If GS wants to try this, then we should. We have commited ourselves to helping GS win. If they think this will help them win, then we should listen to what GS says and follow along with what they want. Of course we want explanations for all this, but you have to grant me that GS wants to win AND keep Rp viable at the same tiem.

	13-11-2003 04:35									#27
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I think we shouldn't follow GS like blind people that don't know the way home, but think for ourselves and do our own initiatives, have our own diplomatic talks and negotiations and form our own foreign policy.

No matter how close we are allied to GS, it is not GS, but OUR government that decides what happens and what not, to what we agree and to what not. (and yes, it seems that we are currently all in government, so we all decide about the fate of Spain.

Aidun

	13-11-2003 05:04									#28
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Folks, if GOW wants to technically break their contract with ND, LET THEM. Do not emotionally block it or base your decisions on pride and distrust. The only one hurt by GOW using a technicality to break their contract is ND, and what do you think is going to happen to GoW and ND if they break it?

We NEED their alliance to crumble. I don't buy into the martyr idea at all. I don't want us to die fighting. I want us to WIN fighting, and to win this game we need to craftily tear down their alliances and their agreements so that the turn on each other. Once they turn on each other, taking back Spain will be easy, and fun as well.

--Togas

	13-11-2003 05:48									#29
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Is There any chance GoW can fool us if we would cooperate to break that deal with ND? And would we suffer a loss in production? Will we get Pamplona back as capital after this circus?

That are the things I base my opinion on, but I don't trust that after such an action everything will be allright, just like now.

Aidun

	13-11-2003 06:27									#30
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I don't like the idea of withdrawing all of our forces from Bob and leaving Pamplona and other cities undefended for a turn for GoW and ND to stab us in the back.

Besides, if GoW is serious about this, what they're talking about is "ending their contract with their benefator and then accepted a contract AGAINST their previous benefactor"... which is a backstab, plain and simple. If they're serious about performing a backstab, why the hell does it matter whether they do it contractully or not?

That's my point... I honestly can't see the difference in reputation loss between those. If GoW is prepared to backstab their ally, they don't need our military leaving all of our cities undefended for a turn to do it.

I just don't buy the reasoning behind their proposal, that's all.