10-11-2003 22:23									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Traelin Hrm one thing I've always wondered but would forget to ask is whether or not the AI uses GLs to RB Wonders. Does anyone have verifiable evidence that they do?

Yes. At least in PTW they did. I established an embassy once with a civ. The city picture of the capital showed a partially finished wonder and a GL among the units in the city. Next turn, they built the wonder there.

	10-11-2003 22:23									#32
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I have, in the past, traded an advance to the AI and the AI has built the Great Wonder that required that advance the very next turn. So it must have either been prebuilding the thing or have used a Great Leader. I don't believe the AI prebuilds.

	10-11-2003 23:45									#33
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Not really, but it sure looks like it to me. ONe wonder was not showing as under construction and a few turns later it was completed, so I got to conclude it was rushed or the F7 is not working.

OK I should add I could have been wrong, blind or confused.

	10-11-2003 23:52									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Traelin Hrm one thing I've always wondered but would forget to ask is whether or not the AI uses GLs to RB Wonders. Does anyone have verifiable evidence that they do?

Yes, they do. I was using debug mode a long time to see if the AI would use GL's in this manner, and they did on several occasions. I was watching the AI cities building Wonders.

	11-11-2003 00:45									#35
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quote: Originally posted by mimi Then a couple games later (I get bored easily) I see a popup and there's the guy in the black suit again. Very cool and he can't get killed like my military ones always did...

Hmm...I'm pretty sure that Scientific Great Leaders can be killed just like Military Great Leaders (although if you ask me, I think it would be cooler for SGLs to be capturable -- after all, the US did 'obtain' a great deal of scientists from Germany after WWII...)

	11-11-2003 00:51									#36
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Scientific leaders are killable, I believe. I think the point is that they are less likely to be killed, as they spawn within your cities as opposed to in a warzone

	11-11-2003 00:56									#37
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yeah, they spawn in your capital.

if you're ahead on the tech race and lose your capital, or move (up to 2 moves, i believe) into the enemy's range, you're stupid, and deserve to lose him.

	11-11-2003 04:04									#38
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quote: Originally posted by RobC Hmm...I'm pretty sure that Scientific Great Leaders can be killed just like Military Great Leaders (although if you ask me, I think it would be cooler for SGLs to be capturable -- after all, the US did 'obtain' a great deal of scientists from Germany after WWII...)

OOOhhhhhhh - I Like that Idea! - Admitably, it would be a rare event .

Change #1 - SGL's are capturable like settlers and Arty.

Change #1.5 - Captured SGL's cannot rush Great Wonders, but may rush small wonders and contribute only to a lesser science bonus - say 10 turns or a single city.

Change #2 - SGL's appear in the city producing the greatest Science Contribution (More realistic, and greater possibility of that city falling)

1.5 and 2 may require a patch to become workable.


Actually - Poking around in the editor - the generic unit 'Leader' already has a defense of 0, which according to the help file implies that leaders are already capturable - It may be that in PTW the AI was always disbanding captured MGL's just like it would often disband captured workers. - so .... SGL's may already be in the capturable catagory.

Anyone in the know care to comment?

Thanks

Kevin P.

	11-11-2003 04:27									#39
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In vanilla civ, they got killed. Think about Artillery. If you don't have the tech, but capture Artillery, it gets destroyed. GLs are produced without a tech, so you can never build them. Thus they get destroyed (try attacking an enemy scout with a expansionist civ, than try without the expansionist ability).

	11-11-2003 04:52									#40
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Perhaps you could try a mod where leaders are buildable, but cost some outrageous amount (more than any wonder)...then perhaps they will be capturable. (although I notice in the editor that there is only one 'leader' unit that has 'build army', 'finish improvement' and 'science age' all checked, so the difference between SGLs and MGLs may be hard-coded meaning if you can capture one you can capture both...)

	11-11-2003 06:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by RobC Perhaps you could try a mod where leaders are buildable, but cost some outrageous amount (more than any wonder)...then perhaps they will be capturable. (although I notice in the editor that there is only one 'leader' unit that has 'build army', 'finish improvement' and 'science age' all checked, so the difference between SGLs and MGLs may be hard-coded meaning if you can capture one you can capture both...)

I had a buildable leader mod way back in Civ3. I will try this later tonight and see what happens. I don't know if it is still true, but in Civ3, you had to make something else available for the Battle Created Unit or the Leader wouldn't show up.

	11-11-2003 06:39									#42
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so the only way to rush a great wonder is using a scientific leader?

Or did they change it so you can use gold again?

	11-11-2003 12:25									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident so the only way to rush a great wonder is using a scientific leader? Or did they change it so you can use gold again?

SGL's are the only way to rush Wonders.

	12-11-2003 01:16									#44
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The ai seemed to be building wonders like crazy. And I was only playing warlord level yesterday. I think they may have lowered the cost, or somehow beefed up city production.

I've been able to build a few, so I can't complain. But I have yet to get a scientific leader. I'm still not all that happy with the wonder building model. But oh well.

	12-11-2003 04:39									#45
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I have gotten frustrated not being able to ruch buy wonders when i started playing civ3 over civ2, but all in all, i think it is better to not be able to rush buy the wonders.

Although I must admit that I find myself staring at the monitor in awe and paranoia sometimes as I watch ai civ after ai civ beat me to wonder after wonder.

	12-11-2003 04:50									#46
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I just really hate it when they beat me by 1 or 2 turns. It drives me bonkers. It's like they know I'm about to finish.

They did that last night to me with Copernicus', but I just researched theory so I switched to Newton's.

	12-11-2003 04:57									#47
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yes, most of the time i get beat it is within 1-4 turns of me completing it.

most dubious

	12-11-2003 06:19									#48
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quote: Originally posted by RobC Perhaps you could try a mod where leaders are buildable, but cost some outrageous amount (more than any wonder)...then perhaps they will be capturable. (although I notice in the editor that there is only one 'leader' unit that has 'build army', 'finish improvement' and 'science age' all checked, so the difference between SGLs and MGLs may be hard-coded meaning if you can capture one you can capture both...)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can make a buildable leader in C3C. You could in PTW. The "finish improvement" switch is there, but it doesn't seem to work - at least I've had no luck.

	12-11-2003 06:25									#49
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Does not seem to work for MGL, they can't seem to build anything but armies.

	12-11-2003 08:01									#50
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Strange...after playing around with leaders in the editor, it seems like:

1) Leaders added to the map using the editor can rush wonders and build armies, but cannot rush normal improvements and cannot start scientific ages

2) You can't remove any of the special action flags (build army, finish improvement, science age) or the 'leader' unit ability, or the unit will no longer be able to do anything

	12-11-2003 08:07									#51
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I just tried using a MGL to rush a temple and that worked in an "epic" game. I could have sworn I tried in this game to rush another non-wonder structure and it would not let me.

	12-11-2003 08:25									#52
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I got 2 in my current game. Good stuff.

	12-11-2003 10:42									#53
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quote: Originally posted by jackshot Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can make a buildable leader in C3C. You could in PTW. The "finish improvement" switch is there, but it doesn't seem to work - at least I've had no luck.

I know in Civ3, for a Leader to be buildable, you had to choose a different option for Battle Created Unit in place of Leader. I haven't tried this in Conquests yet to see if it still holds true.

quote: Originally posted by RobC Strange...after playing around with leaders in the editor, it seems like: 1) Leaders added to the map using the editor can rush wonders and build armies, but cannot rush normal improvements and cannot start scientific ages 2) You can't remove any of the special action flags (build army, finish improvement, science age) or the 'leader' unit ability, or the unit will no longer be able to do anything

I removed the Science Age flag in a quick mod. In testing the mod, I also changed the Battle Created Unit to Army, gave the Leader a cost of 1 for quick building.

Results. It could rush Great Wonders, but not improvements; it could also create Armies once I had 4 cities in play. It also couildn't start a Scientific Age. I was able to build it from the start since I didn't place any tech requirements on it.

	12-11-2003 12:22									#54
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It looks like the battle created unit thing was what I missed. However, whether or not you have science age checked, it seems have the same behavior (build armies or rush wonders only)...also, leaders don't seem to be capturable even if they are buildable by all, and are not the battle created unit -- it's possible that it's hard-coded for units with the 'leader' ability to be destroyed when attacked.

	12-11-2003 12:57									#55
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quote: Originally posted by RobC It looks like the battle created unit thing was what I missed. However, whether or not you have science age checked, it seems have the same behavior (build armies or rush wonders only)...also, leaders don't seem to be capturable even if they are buildable by all, and are not the battle created unit -- it's possible that it's hard-coded for units with the 'leader' ability to be destroyed when attacked.

I noticed the Science Age issue when I tried the leader both ways.

	13-11-2003 06:25									#56
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I don't get beat out to wonders that I invest a lot of shields building in my games; instad its the AI that gets beat out by the 1-4 turn margin.

Of course, this was before SGLs and I don't know if the AI is smart enough to almost always use them for GLs. But I'm guessing the AI will probably mostly use them for boosting science.

quote: Originally posted by vee4473 yes, most of the time i get beat it is within 1-4 turns of me completing it. most dubious

	13-11-2003 19:44									#57
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I don't get beat out to wonders that I invest a lot of shields building in my games; instad its the AI that gets beat out by the 1-4 turn margin. Of course, this was before SGLs and I don't know if the AI is smart enough to almost always use them for GLs. But I'm guessing the AI will probably mostly use them for boosting science.

hi ,

unfortunatly the answer is no , .....

it would be nice to see the AI use them better when the level goes up , .......

Firaxis , .....

have a nice day

	14-11-2003 02:49									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Traelin Hrm one thing I've always wondered but would forget to ask is whether or not the AI uses GLs to RB Wonders. Does anyone have verifiable evidence that they do?

I've been investigating AI cities to see if they can compete with me in some wonders just to find they have been rushbuilding them a turn later.

	14-11-2003 19:19									#59
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Was playing as the Maya today. Got a SGL with the first tech I researched. Since the Maya start with Masonry, I used him to rush build the Pyramids in the year 3450 BC!!!!

Fanes7 eat your heart out!

Only problem with this is that the Maya are Ind and Ag. Building the Pyramids put me in a GA. I still only had one city!

	14-11-2003 21:03									#60
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quote: Was playing as the Maya today. Got a SGL with the first tech I researched. Since the Maya start with Masonry, I used him to rush build the Pyramids in the year 3450 BC!!!! Fanes7 eat your heart out! Only problem with this is that the Maya are Ind and Ag. Building the Pyramids put me in a GA. I still only had one city!

I've been hoping for something like that to happen for me, though not with a Ind/Ag or Ind/Rel civ, to avoid the GA thing.

I like the idea of picking a commercial civ and researching up the writing path at full speed. That pretty much guarantees you're first to writing, philo, whichever bonus tech you chose from that (CoL), etc. It's yet to pay off with a SGL for me, but it's still useful anyway. The Iroquois rock.

I was playing Sumer last night and triggered my GA via wonders... the weird part is *which* wonders.

Sumer = Ag/Sci.
Wonders built = Great Library (Sci, check), Sistine Chapel, Leonardo's, Knights Templar, and the Hanging Gardens... and upon HG completion, I entered my GA. In PTW the HG was Industrious. Is it now Agricultural too?

Sumer is ok, not great. I gotta try a Seafaring civ next. Maybe the Dutch (I've quickly fallen in love with Agricultural) or English, or Byzantines...

-Arrian