13-11-2003 12:05									#31
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You give GCA too much credit to look at the power rankings.

GCA does not know if we used a NM to kill a unit of theirs.

	13-11-2003 21:07									#32
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Your argument is therefore that GCA does not know we're not in our GA because they're not very good players.

Please, not another one of these debates.


Dominae

	13-11-2003 22:59									#33
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Look, the point is that neither can be assumed, hmm K?

	13-11-2003 23:45									#34
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In that case (which I agree), it would be better to assume GCA knows what they're doing, right?

It would be perilous to think we're immune to GCA triggering our GA, now or later.

If they never do, fine. Let's just not put ourselves in a situation where they very well could, thinking that they think that we're already in our GA.


Dominae

	14-11-2003 00:56									#35
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I think we might need a poll, to decide the following:

If/when a turn is being played and an opportunity arises to start our GA (like the last turn) on the attack, should we do it?

That way the turn player & those present in the turn chat will have a clear directive to go on.

-Arrian

	14-11-2003 01:31									#36
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Sounds good, please post one.

	15-11-2003 02:35									#37
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Done.

-Arrian

	09-12-2003 18:38									#38
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-bump- Arne asked me to bump this when in chat.

The problem is if we don't trigger our GA with a NM against GCA, how are we going to do it?

CFC isn't likely to offer up a suitable unit to kill.

On the wonder front, we would need an indu and comm wonder. Do we really want to build the Great Wall? (pure waste but only indu wonder we can build now)

So I challenge those who want to defer to DETAIL how they plan to trigger the GA and when.

Last edited by roadcage on 09-12-2003 at 19:01

	09-12-2003 19:37									#39
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Actually, there is a pretty good possibility that CFC and Apolyton will duke it out. I'd rather that didn't happen (at least not for a while), but the recent election results over there are not encouraging.

-Arrian

	09-12-2003 23:05									#40
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I've been warning about this for a while now and I'll repeat it again.

Where are we going to be when the war is over, we have no GA, and (bear with me here), there is no war with CFC at least before the advent of muskets, perhaps even cavalry. Numidian Mercs won't be useful much at all and it's doubtful we'll have too many left around by then other than those upgraded to muskets already.

In that scenario, how precisely are getting our GA? We need to plan ahead on which wonders we'll build, where we'll build them, and when.

	09-12-2003 23:32									#41
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Perhaps after the war we can start a wonder prebuild for Adam Smith or something like that in a slow-growth city like Tripoli or BFC?

I doubt we'll have much competition for the Great Wall but we could also build that as well.

	10-12-2003 00:22									#42
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The great wall is dirt cheap, only 200 shields. I don't have the latest save (not sure where to find it) but surely that could be spit out of a town relatively quickly if we put our mind to it. And it would be helpful against possible CFC incursions, as I suspect when they come, they will bypass the chokepoints by crossing the sea.

	10-12-2003 01:08									#43
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What about the Hanging Gardens?

	11-12-2003 03:44									#44
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quote: Arnelos said..... What about the Hanging Gardens?

We have to study Monarchy first. Do we really want to?

I recognize that now is not an optimum time to GA, but a suboptimum GA is better than no GA.

Let's rephrase. When is the next good time to GA?

My reply is just when we finnish Invention. We are now so far into it at a 40 turn rate, that it would be a waste of gold to ramp up now. Hence our GA gold would be best spent on infrastructure or other non research items. When we see the 190 AD turn, there will be 19 turns left to Invention.

Can we put forward a plan that GA's soon after Invention? We don't need to hit exactly as I believe we will be deficit researching the next tech and our GA gold could be effeciently spent on whatever we decide including research.

Can we put a City on the Great Wall now and can we put a City on the Colossus now without jeopardizing our Bunny Rex?

I don't know about the bunnies, but consider:

Apolyton trades away it's excess food for shields (to avoid growing during the Build) and makes the GW in 15.

Ok, I know it is not good since we plan to palace jump, but any other 10+ shield city will do a 200 wonder like the GW in 20 or less.


Incensity trades away it's excess food for shields (ditto) and makes the Colossus in 23. Incensity can accept 1 worker and shave a couple off of this. This one is harder since it must be a coastal city and we don't have that many high shield coastal cities. But any 8+ shield coastal city will do a 200 shield wonder like the colossus in 24 or less.

This is close enough to my 19 turn target to be acceptable.

Will the MoI please consult with the bunnies about this plan? (using an acceptable city instead of Apolyton which will be abandoned in the palace jump)

Are there any other plans?

	11-12-2003 10:32									#45
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I want a WONDER!

	11-12-2003 14:20									#46
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Wonders, not quite yet, but relatively soon (in game time, not Real time...). But the more important things right now are the FP, the expansion and the Palace move.

MoI E_T

	11-12-2003 20:39									#47
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I'd say the Great Wall might be a solid idea. Then we can stick walls on our chokepoint cities and CFC would have to roll up with cats to knock the walls down (instead of just blitzing from 3 tiles out with riders).

It's cheap, and it deals with the "industrious" requirement. Then we need a commercial wonder.

Has the Colossus been built? Probably, but I joined the team kinda late so I don't know. That still leaves Smith's and Magellans. We would need a lengthy prebuild for either one of those, though.

-Arrian

	11-12-2003 20:50									#48
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The ONLY wonder that has been built is the Pyramids. That's it, non are even under construction....

E_T

	11-12-2003 21:40									#49
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well, and the Great library eh? buried under a ton of ruble.


Colossus + Great Wall =Cheap way to get a Golden Age. No mess.

	11-12-2003 21:50									#50
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I'm liking that idea, frankly.

Also, I believe the Lighthouse qualifies as "commercial" so it's a fall back if somebody decides they want the Colossus.

-Arrian

	11-12-2003 22:37									#51
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4 wonders I'd like to see us working on now and in the near future... Leo's (look at GOW as to why this is a good thing to have), Adam Smith, Great Wall and Colossus. That gives our military a decisive advantage, our GA and a massive economic advantage.

Hard to fit all that in, I know. Perhaps we could do the majority of Leo's and Adam Smith during our GA in a high-SPT city.

	11-12-2003 23:37									#52
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Great Wall....BFC....now...,

have a nice day....

	12-12-2003 00:21									#53
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Trip,

Yeah, in order to get Smiths and/or Leos, I think we will need to build them during our GA. I think the first realistic goal is working out where we're going to build the GW and Colossus (if indeed the rest of the team agrees that's a good idea). Then, if it looks like we're going to get them, we pick a city to build Leos during the resulting GA, and maybe start a Smith's prebuild. Bach would be nice too, of course, but obviously we're a little short on big wonder-building type cities.

-Arrian

	12-12-2003 00:30									#54
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Hispanica looks like a good candidate for the Colossus. I'd say Apolyton for the GW, but we're going to build that down and abandon to do the palace jump, so we need to pick a different city. Hmm, we're not exactly inundated with choices here.

edit: maybe BigFurryCity or Banatopia for the GW?

-Arrian

	12-12-2003 02:08									#55
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I'm thinking BFC and Tripoli are probably our best "wonder" cities. They have lots of hills nearby (at least 3) and we can irrigate some grass for them. During the GA they could pump out 20-25 SPT. As it stands now we may be able to get 15 SPT out of Tripoli with 3 mined hills, 2 shielded grass and 1 irrigated grass.

	12-12-2003 03:00									#56
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* Arrian wanders off to look at a screenshot and find Tripoli.

	12-12-2003 03:05									#57
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Yeah, but what's corruption like down in Tripoli? Just looking at a screenshot of our empire, it's a 2nd-tier city out from Apolyton. I know that we will be moving our palace, but I'm not clear on when, exactly. That's relevant to this discussion.

The whole purpose of waiting for our GA, instead of triggering it during the war, is to time it to occur after the palace jump, so we get a GA with optimal Palace/FP placement. Does E_T have a schedule for the palace jump? If so, we can then try and synch up the Colossus & GW builds.

-Arrian

	12-12-2003 03:21									#58
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Corruption is about 25% in Tripoli currently. It will probably be less once the FP is in place.

Despite being a 2nd ring city, it's still tied for the #1 SPT in our empire (10, at the moment).

	12-12-2003 05:56									#59
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I'm very much liking that we are now talking specifics about starting our GA with wonders.

For my part, I'd actually PREFER to start our GA with wonders because then we can start our GA at a time of our choosing, when it will be most useful to our development. If GCA or CFC starts our GA for us due to an attack on an NM, oh well... s--- happens. But I'd honestly prefer to start our GA when WE want to start it... and the only way to do that is to do it through wonders, since we seem to be agreed that'd we'd like to use our GA period to build rather than conquer.

As for specific wonders, I believe that starting our GA with the Colossus or the Great Lighthouse for the commercial wonder and the Great Wall or the Hanging Gardens for the industrial wonder (HG is industrious, right?) if we get our hands on Monarchy is the way to go.

Once our GA has already begun, we can then build any additional improvements we want in the cities that built those wonders and/or have them build such critical wonders as Leonardo's Workshop and Smith's Trading Company (should we have the option).

If the other continent is at war at the time, their economies may be more focused on military units and give us the opportunity to build these things. Oddly, I think we might actually get more competition from CFC, which may (like us) want to build Leonardo's Workshop and will be in peace during this period. They have a lot of hills in their territory, improving their chances. Fortunately for us, they have almost no WORKERS to speak of, so those hills aren't doing anything for them at the moment

As for wonder cities, I happen to agree with Trip after looking around at the save that Hispanica and Tripoli are very good choices for these wonders. They have enough hills to improve the SPT counts, and they are both close to Karina (our FP site) and will thus have low waste.

I'd like very much for E_T to look at how soon Hispanica could start work on a Colossus pre-build and how soon Tripoli could start work on a Great Wall prebuild. MrWhereItsAt had a suggestion in chat that we could use Cathedrals as pre-builds once we get Monotheism since they cost a lot of shields (almost as much as those two wonders) and that leaves us open to still use the Palace as a prebuild for a third city if we want to start pre-building Leonardo's Workshop at some point.

Good work, everyone. Let's start writing the actual plans.

	12-12-2003 08:25									#60
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No pre-builds are necessary. Both GW and Colossus can be built at any time. We have the requisite techs. Now we may want to disguise our intention by working on something else then switching before complete because any team can determine what we are up to by hitting {F7}. But that is not a pre-build. Just stealth.

I believe at this point we have a near concensus that GW + Colossus is the way forward. CFC may covet the GW as it does all their atrributes in one wonder, but I don't think they have the shieldpower to compete. And also they probably plan to initiate by Rider attack (on us). Someone may want the Colossus for the trade, but more likely is somebody wanting the GLH for the movement.

Making these wonders requires that we get abuildin. We cannot depend on the CGN/GWT conflict lsting indefinately. It sure would be nice if it did but.... So to move forward we need to talk about the other half of this thread topic.

Starting our GA: When and How?

I continue to believe that we should be shooting for Invention aquuisition plus as few turns as practical. This happens to be aroundabout the time Karina will finnish the FP. We can tighten up both wonders and the FP as soon as we connect the furs.

If there are any competing GA initiation schedules out there in the wibbly wobbly web, please speak up soonest.

Ssgt roadcage (ret)