12-12-2003 13:17									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'd say the Great Wall might be a solid idea. Then we can stick walls on our chokepoint cities and CFC would have to roll up with cats to knock the walls down (instead of just blitzing from 3 tiles out with riders).

Hmmm.... Can walls given to a city by a wonder be knocked down by cats? I know you can't sell city improvements that are granted by a wonder, but I don't know about destroying them.

quote: Originally posted by Trip 4 wonders I'd like to see us working on now and in the near future... Leo's (look at GOW as to why this is a good thing to have), Adam Smith, Great Wall and Colossus. That gives our military a decisive advantage, our GA and a massive economic advantage.

I know that this is susposed to be about when to trigger our GA, but Trip has brought up a VERY important fact. In MP/PBEM, where there are massive stacks of units (just look at our original war plan) Leo's has become the single most important wonder in the entire game (yes, I fully believe that it is more valuable than Hoover's). We need to get this wonder at all cost.

Ok, you can get back on topic...

	12-12-2003 13:26									#62
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Which wonders actually trigger our GA?

I'm reluctant to go and build a wonder that will become obsolete and/or does not give us many benefits.

Sun Tzu's does. Leo's does. But the Great Wall and the Colossus .. ?!

	12-12-2003 15:18									#63
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WONDERS OF THE WORLD

200-Shield Wonders

The Colossus - GWT (Exp+Rel), ACS (Com)
The Great Wall - CGN (Ind), ACS (Ind), CFC (Mil+Ind)

300-Shield Wonders

The Oracle - GWT (Rel)
The Great Lighthouse - GWT (Exp), ACS (Com)
The Hanging Gardens - CGN (Ind), ACS (Ind), CFC (Ind)

400-Shield Wonders

The Pyramids <-- did GWT start their GA? I assume not
The Great Library
Copernicus' Observatory - GWT (Exp)
Magellan's Voyage - GWT (Exp), ACS (Com)
Newton's University - CGN (Sci)
Shakespeare's Theatre

600-Shield Wonders

Sun Szu's Art of War - CFC (Mil)
Leonardo's Workshop - CFC (Mil)
Sistine Chapel - GWT (Rel)
JS Bach's Cathedral (Music Theory) - GWT (Rel)
Smith's Trading Company - ACS (Com)
Theory of Evolution - CGN (Sci)

800-Shield Wonders

Universal Suffrage - CFC (Mil)
Hoover Dam - CGN (Ind), ACS (Ind), CFC (Ind)
The Manhattan Project - CGN (Ind), ACS (Ind), CFC (Ind+Mil)

1000-Shield Wonders

The United Nations (Fission) - ACS (Com)
SETI Program (Computers) - GWT (Exp)
The Internet (Minitiarization) - ANY
Cure for Cancer (Genetics) - CGN (Sci)
Longevity (Genetics) - CGN (Sci)

----------------------------------------

APOLYTON CIVILIZATION SITE (ACS)

Commercial Trait:
The Colossus (200 shields)
The Great Lighthouse (300 shields)
Magellan's Voyage (400 shields)
Smith's Trading Company (600 shields)
The United Nations (1000 shields)
The Internet (1000 shields)

Industrious Trait:
The Great Wall (200 shields)
The Hanging Gardens (300 shields)
Hoover Dam (800 shields)
Manhattan Project (800 shields)
The Internet (1000 shields)

----------------------------------------

CIVILIZATION FANATICS CENTER (CFC)

Militaristic Trait:
The Great Wall (200 shields)
Sun Szu's Art of War (600 shields)
Leonardo's Workshop (600 shields)
Universal Suffrage (800 shields)
Manhattan Project (800 shields)
The Internet (1000 shields)

Industrious Trait:
The Great Wall (200 shields)
The Hanging Gardens (300 shields)
Hoover Dam (800 shields)
Manhattan Project (800 shields)
The Internet (1000 shields)

----------------------------------------

CIVILIZATION GAMING NETWORK (CGN)

Scientific Trait:
Newton's University (400 shields)
Theory of Evolution (600 shields)
The Internet (1000 shields)
Cure for Cancer (1000 shields)
Longevity (1000 shields)

Industrious Trait:
The Great Wall (200 shields)
The Hanging Gardens (300 shields)
Hoover Dam (800 shields)
Manhattan Project (800 shields)
The Internet (1000 shields)

----------------------------------------

GERMAN WEBRING TEAM (GWT)

Religious Trait:
*Already Fulfilled by The Pyramids*
The Colossus (200 shields)
The Oracle (300 shields)
Sistine Chapel[/b] (600 shields)
JS Bach's Cathedral (600 shields)
The Internet (1000 shields)

Expansionistic Trait:
The Colossus (200 shields)
The Great Lighthouse (300 shields)
Copernicus' Observatory (400 shields)
Magellan's Voyage (400 shields)
SETI Program (1000 shields)
The Internet (1000 shields)

----------------------------------------

GWT almost certainly is planning to start their GA with the Ansar Warrior and thus has little need to plan on starting their GA with a second wonder, but ANY expansionist wonder would accomplish the job, the cheapest of which is the Colossus (200 shields). Given GWT's apparent focus on military methods for achieving success in the game, it is far more likely that their wonder-building will be focused on such wonders as Leondardo's Workshop and Sun Szu's Art of War in the immediate future, though the Sistine Chapel (to increase the power of their cheap temples) is likely another priority.

CGN is likely going to start their GA with their Sipahi UU because while hoping to start it with The Great Wall or The Hanging Gardens may be possible, those wonders are probably not appealing enough to CGN to justify the shield expense on merely a CHANCE of starting their GA. The nearest scientific wonders, meanwhile, come about around the same time their UU will arrive on the scene and solve the issue for them. I imagine that CGN will be focused on the same wonders as GWT in the immediate future, Leondardo's Workshop and the Sistine Chapel.

CFC could build The Great Wall and achieve their GA automatically, but it is unlikely that they will be albe to accomplish this. So they will want to start their GA either through using riders (presumably against us unless they can discover Navigation and use them on the other continent, which is unlikely) or through wonders, in which case it will be difficult for them to build both an industrious wonder and/or a militaristic wonder before another civilization. The wonders they need for their GA are under high demand: the militaristic wonders because everyone wants to build them and the industrious wonders because everyone other than GWT is industrious. That said, if Apolyton starts its GA with The Colossus and (likely) has no desire to build The Hanging Gardens, this wonder would probably be a safe bet for CFC to fulfill their industrious trait. As for their militaristic trait, this is going to be far more of a problem if they don't get lucky with The Hanging Gardens. Every single team will be seeking to build Leonardo's Workshop and CFC is the least likely to be able to pull it off. Sun Szu's Art of War might seem a natural fallback, but it is both expensive and the likely fallback for any of Apolyton, CGN, or GWT that do not get either Leonardo's Workshop, the Sistine Chapel, or JS Bach's Cathedral. I'd suggest that perhaps we might try to help them secure agreements from CGN and GWT that no-one will build Sun Szu's Art of War other than CFC, but that would make it far too apparent that we are the ones who plan to build The Great Wall. Perhaps once The Great Wall is already complete, we could go about doing this to show that we wish to compensate CFC for not getting their GA through either riders (against us) or The Great Wall. Might not work to stop them from attacking us, but does provide both an avenue to handle the issue of their GA and shows them that we are conscientious about helping them in this respect in order to avoid a conflict. No guarantee that will help, though........

For us, the obvious thing to do in terms of wonders seems to be that we should build The Colossus and The Great Wall immediately. Our fallback for The Great Wall is The Hanging Gardens and our fallback for The Colossus can be The Great Lighthouse. For the future, Leonardo's Workshop seems to be the clear choice around here, but we are likely to be in high competition for it unless the other continent is mired in a war WITHOUT their golden ages in order to compete with our own. Beyond Leonardo's Workshop, I am not clear on what the optimal wonders will be. The Sistine Chapel is a good wonder, but will also likely have stiff competition, as will JS Bachs's Cathedral among those who fail to build the Sistine Chapel. In the future, Smith's Trading Company is probably the one we could most use, followed by Copernicus' Observatory and Newton's College if we have a city we can build them in and beat CGN and GWT to finishing them. It is unlikely we will be able to build all of these wonders, however, and we will need to prioritze in what order we wish them built or switched to if another beats us in the race for the one(s) we wanted.

EDIT: BFM asked me to add this to the Area X thread and I have done so within his Wonders of the World post.

	12-12-2003 16:12									#64
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Okay, so we are all in a tizzy about how and when to trigger our GA. I will refer back to my suggestion that I made long ago about a GA contract with CFC. We each promise to build one warrior to sit in forgein lands and do nothing but wait to get killed. They tell us where they want us to put the warrior and they tell us when they are going to kill him. We do the same. End result is a higher degree of trust (because we have just garunteed them a GA) and a perfectly timed GA for us. Its a win-win situation all the way around.

	12-12-2003 16:33									#65
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Okay, so we are all in a tizzy about how and when to trigger our GA. I will refer back to my suggestion that I made long ago about a GA contract with CFC. We each promise to build one warrior to sit in forgein lands and do nothing but wait to get killed. They tell us where they want us to put the warrior and they tell us when they are going to kill him. We do the same. End result is a higher degree of trust (because we have just garunteed them a GA) and a perfectly timed GA for us. Its a win-win situation all the way around.

Don,

It has been generally accepted that this would be an exploit. It's not against the rules, so we could do it, but a lot of members dont like the idea.

	12-12-2003 16:49									#66
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Oh... I guess I missed when it was discussed. Personally, I don't see it as one. Its just two nations helping each other out. Is cooperation an exploit?

	12-12-2003 16:59									#67
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I am undecided myself.

	12-12-2003 17:27									#68
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Haven't civs through out the ages used sacraficial units to help the larger picture?

	12-12-2003 19:10									#69
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I consider it an exploit, and my impression was that most of the team agreed.

Here's a question: has the issue every been addressed at the "UN" ?

-Arrian

	13-12-2003 00:05									#70
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Exploit.

	13-12-2003 00:19									#71
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Haven't civs through out the ages used sacraficial units to help the larger picture?

Ummm... nations did sacrifice units, but no sacrifice of an obsolete unit resulted in 20 turns of boosted economy. Ever.

I would not feel easy using the trick either. It's cheesy at least, IMHO... we can do better than that.

	13-12-2003 10:50									#73
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Ok, ok... relax. I'm not pushing the issue here, was just making a suggestion on what I felt was a valid tactic (this is a personal opinon and not subject to change). If the team doesn't like it then we won't do it. But I have made an attempt to at least start to categorize "exploits". Go here to speak out about it (do not mention our paticular situation as it is an unsecure forum).

	13-12-2003 13:27									#74
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Enough talk, lets build the GW and Colossus. Maybe a poll to determine the best locale is in order?

	13-12-2003 18:15									#75
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The Great Wall and Colossus seem like a big waste of Shields to me, when you consider that we're most probably going to go to war with CFC sometime in the future. Are we still deluding ourselves into believing that CFC will not attack us?

Our GA is a big deal, but we're getting ahead of ourselves by building half-rate Wonders to enter it. This is a game where we profit more from a later GA (due to our slow early-game). Why endeavour to start it so soon?


Dominae

	14-12-2003 03:56									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The Great Wall and Colossus seem like a big waste of Shields to me, when you consider that we're most probably going to go to war with CFC sometime in the future. Are we still deluding ourselves into believing that CFC will not attack us? Our GA is a big deal, but we're getting ahead of ourselves by building half-rate Wonders to enter it. This is a game where we profit more from a later GA (due to our slow early-game). Why endeavour to start it so soon? Dominae

We shouldn't necessarily start it so soon. This is the reason why the critical question about the GA right now is WHEN we believe we would like to have our GA at the time of our choosing. We then plan to start our GA at the time of our choosing with wonders (whose timing we have a reasonable level of control over). If CFC starts our GA before then by attacking our Numidian Mercenaries, we adjust.

The point is, that for purposes of PLANNING, we need to assume that CFC isn't going to be so kind/evil as to start our GA for us and that we need to plan, at the very least as a contingency, what we do if we need to start the GA with wonders intead.

	14-12-2003 04:03									#77
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The thing with CFC starting our GA for us is that we will be using it to build units to defend against them and turn around and attack them. With wonders, we can completely focus on developing our cities.

	14-12-2003 18:40									#78
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Starting those wonders now is not too soon. Starting now will initiate our GA approximately in sync with our FP. It may not be "optimum" or "perfect" but it is reasonable.

Despite many requests for another GA timetable, the Invention researched plus a minimum number of turns put forth by this lurker remains the only schedule posted on the forum.

I have an open mind. I can be convinced. But I cannot be convinced by silence.

-------------------------------------
the following is directed not at our regular in the trenches turn by turn workaholics who keep this team moving ahead, but rather to the back benchers as it were. My fellow lurkers who faithfully read these pages day in and day out in search of gameplay ideas.
-------------------------------------

Is this lurker, who only offered the plan because of the complete lack of a plan in the forums ever going to be replied to in substance?

Or will Apolyton's assumed main strength of team depth be declared a sham.

	15-12-2003 19:39									#79
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By the way, while I agree with Dominae that the Great Wall is a "half rate wonder" the Colossus is not. It's cheap considering the commerce output it gives - especially once we get the city up to size 12 (harbor/aqueduct require, it's true).

I think it's a worthwhile endeavor in and of itself - even w/o the GA issue. The Great Wall is another matter, but if CFC *does* attack us, well, we'll get our GA regardless and the GW build can be either switched to a better wonder, or we might consider having the GW a military advantage, and stick with it.

-Arrian

	15-12-2003 19:56									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian By the way, while I agree with Dominae that the Great Wall is a "half rate wonder" the Colossus is not. It's cheap considering the commerce output it gives - especially once we get the city up to size 12 (harbor/aqueduct require, it's true).

Well, we have to build the Colossus in a large productive coastal city, which is not exactly our forte right now (or anywhere in the near-future).

Also, the later you build the Colossus, the less bang for you buck you get out of it. We would probably finish it three-quarters of the way through the Medieval era. The Great Wall is even worse, since it expires with Metallurgy.

If triggering our GA with Wonders is "what we gotta do" then that's what we gotta do. But planning for this when it's clear (to me) that our Numidian Mercenaries will be doing it without the 400-Shield price tag, and I think it becomes clear that it's not something "we gotta do".


Dominae

	15-12-2003 20:04									#81
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I understand what you're saying. The Colossus is indeed less valueable as time goes on. But it's still valueable.

It is possible - likely, even - that we'll end up in a war with CFC, and thus get our GA that way (here's hoping that they take nasty casualties fighting GCA remnants west of PoV, dealing with Lucky's incredible combat "luck"). In that case, we will get our GA via Numidians. However, if that does NOT come to pass, then we will need to trigger our GA with wonders, and it seems to me that Col+GW is the best way to do that.

If we start Tripoli on the GW (or rather a stealthbuild) now, and CFC attacks us before it's done, fine. If it's really early into the build, we can switch over to a knight. If it's a little later, we can switch it to Leos. I think we all know the value of Leos in a war.

-Arrian

	15-12-2003 20:22									#82
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We're not going to get Leo's...

What I'm cautioning against here is starting to build Wonders at this stage or our development. We seem to be very anxious to trigger our GA.

But here's the thing: it's not like we're going to lose our chance to do so via Wonders. There's quite a few Wonders the other teams would want to secure before the Great Wall and the Colossus.

So even if we do not trigger our GA against CFC (which I highly doubt), there will be ample time later to build Wonders instead.

Now is not the time to spend such a large sum of Shields in preparation of something we'll not even be prepared for anyway.


Dominae

	15-12-2003 20:29									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae We're not going to get Leo's...

Why not? The other civs have their troubles also.

	15-12-2003 20:49									#84
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I'd have to agree that we're underdogs for Leos.

Regarding the timing issue, well, it would help if I had a better idea of when our second core would be built and the palace jump was going to occur. I got the impression that it's going to happen pretty fast. Granted, we might not want our GA *right* after the palace jump (low pop in new cities), but rather a little time after it (perhaps 20 turns after, giving time for the cities down there to grow a bit).

So we don't have to start on the GW now. I'd say we should start on the Colossus now, though. As you pointed out, Dom, the Colossus becomes less and less worthwhile as time goes on. By building it, though, we get more than just the wonder's effects - we deal with the "commercial" wonder requirement. Then it's out of the way, leaving Industrious (GW, HG, Hoover).

Waiting for the GW is ok, I guess, if you assume that CFC isn't going to build it. If they do decide that taking us on is a bad idea, that's the way for them to have a GA. If they did build it, we would have to build the HG (meaning we would need to detour for Monarchy) or wait until Hoover (that's a while away, and do you really want to have to count on beating everyone else to Hoover?).

-Arrian