10-11-2003 15:03									#1
	Starting our GA: When and How? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

From this turn's turn report:

quote: The possibility of starting our GA was discussed by E_T, Trip, and BigFree. It was decided to forgo starting the GA. Both NYE and myself asked about this when we arrived later, since we certainly had the option to attack GCA's horsemen with a Numidian Mercenary and start our GA this turn. E_T provided the argument that we need not yet start our GA and that if we're going to be spending the near future "REXing like bunny rabbits", the GA would be less useful than it might otherwise be. I'm not clear on whether this means we are planning to delay our GA until some later point to start it with wonders or whether we might start it with use of a Numidian Mercenary (somehow) later in the game. I'll start a thread to discuss this issue.

First, is it now indeed our plan to start our GA at a later date rather than during the current war at all?

Second, if it is indeed our intention to NOT start our GA during the current war, do we then intend to start our GA with wonders rather than our UU?

Third, if we still intend to start our GA with our UU but not during the current war, how and with whom do we intend to start it?

Fourth, if we now intend to start our GA with wonders, what commercial and what industrial wonder(s) would be best to build or do we have the highest chance to successfully build to achieve our GA?

The implied assumption in these questions is that we do indeed intend on having a GA. The question is when and how we would plausibly achieve it.

I'd like to see us come to some form of an agreement on this issue or, at the very least, different answers for different circumstances. Having the decision decided turn-by-turn in chat really isn't how this should go.

	10-11-2003 16:20									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If we want to start a GA in this war, we must hurry. There is a big possibility that we dont have any enemy after the fall of Catchopolis. When they realise that they will loose they could deny us of our GA by giving away/abandoning their cities.

	10-11-2003 17:10									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

During this war, at the next possible chance. Anything less is assuming too much.

Reasons:
1) We aren't guaranteed to get the wonders we need to get it later. There aren't that many options either between now and the late industrial age.
2) NM's are fast about to become obsolete.

	10-11-2003 20:16									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Has the Great Wall been built?

-Arrian

	10-11-2003 21:11									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Great Wall has not been built. Neither has the Hanging Gardens, both Industrious Great Wonders

The Colossus has also not been built - which is commercial

I had started a thread about this a while back, because of the oppertunities to get the GA were not coming along.


The reason that I didn't take the shot, so to say, was because we will mainly be REXing in the next 20 turns, bananatopia itself will be going from size 7 to size 4 over a short time frame and pumping out 3 settlers that will be moving to the south. Do We really want a GA while we are doing that??

Dom has been talking about how we shouldn't be building Markets while we are REXing, but then, I think that we shouldn't GA while we are REXing.

When we could have gotten out GA 11 turns ago, at the start of the War, there was no plans to REX, and we would have only pulled one or 2 settlers out of the mix. But, because we are 11 turns later, the timing for the GA, when we will be REXing is not that good. We should use the GA to build things, not Settlers.

E_T

	10-11-2003 23:02									#6
	Got spare money?

I generally agree that the combination of a GA & REXing is something to avoid.

The question, then, is do we think we can manage to build either the Great Wall or Hanging Gardens, AND the Colossus (or Smith's or Magellan)?

I'm surprised no one has banged out the Colossus yet. It's so cheap.

GW & HG are understandable - they don't do a heckuva lot for you.

I dunno... obviously it would be idea to have our GA once we've finished up REXing and jumped our Palace/built our FP, but that's a long way off, and I don't think we can count on wonders.

-Arrian

	10-11-2003 23:10									#7
	Put an end to popups!

I think people are taking the battle which is to occur at Catchopolis too lightly. I believe it will be very close and that we will need every unit we have to win a decisive victory. That includes our NMs. By that thinking, I don't believe we'll have much of a choice in when our GA begins.

	10-11-2003 23:52									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Good point. We probably will have to attack with some Numidians (to finish off any horsies in catch?).

I just figured that since we're never going to win a *defensive* battle with Numids that we might get through the war w/o triggering our GA if we so chose.

I do think it's something we should ponder: it's possible, however unlikely, that we could win the war w/o triggering our GA with Numidians. Is this a desirable outcome? Do we want to leave our GA to be triggered by wonders, which we may or may not be able to build, in the hopes that our GA will be much more powerful if it comes later?

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 00:23									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The reasons that I have been asking as to if building the Palace (as a prebuild) in one of our cities would have any effect on the palace move. I was already looking at plans for the upcoming REX/moves and it was plain that having a GA now is not desireable.

Whereas, I we can time it for right after the palace move, we will really be set.

We just need to insure that we get that Great Wall built first. And, If we are suspecting that CFC is going to go postal on us, the GW would be an advantage of some form

Also, we could research Monarchy and build the HG. With only 4 luxes until Navigation/Magnetism, one extra content person in each city would be advantagious.

E_T

	11-11-2003 00:28									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Fast units cannot retreat when defending a city.

	11-11-2003 00:32									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The HG would be ok, but I think the necessity of researching a tech in order to be able to build it (thus using up a minimum of 4 valueable turns researching a tech we otherwise do not need) sinks it.

Interesting question re: palace pre-build. I have no idea. I've never jumped my palace (always used leaders to move it).

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 02:37									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The Reason that I want to do a prebuild, is so that know one knows that we are building it until the turn that we change the builds

E_T

	11-11-2003 02:52									#13
	Put an end to popups!

Well obviously. That part I understood.

What I meant was that I didn't know if using such a prebuild would interfere with the palace jump.

* Arrian prays to the RNG for a leader so we can just rush a palace move.

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 02:56									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I would prefer to avoid our GA for now and just REX. But this will probably not be possible.

So, how about going into super-builder mode during our GA? E_T's idea to put Marketplaces everywhere would make a lot more sense then (maybe this is what you were anticipating all along?). We would get some much-needed infrastructure up, including the aforementioned Marketplaces, plus Harbors, Aqueducts and Temples.

I would rather not try for a Wonder with our GA. None of the ones that we can realistically get are worth it.


Dominae

	11-11-2003 03:00									#15
	Suffering from ads?

Oh, I agree that if we trigger our GA now (or have it triggered by actually *winning* with a Numidian on defense), we should use it to build infrastructure like marketplaces, courthouses, aqueducts, libraries... stuff like that. Not to mention our FP. Edit: doh, I see now, it's started, in Karina.

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 04:22									#16
	Got spare money?

without a GA, the FP will be completed in 27 turns from now (turn 161 - 650AD). But at the same time, we have workers starting to be churned out of Lux (1 every 3 turns), the New Cuildo Worker pump that will soon be coming online (1 every 5 turns - after getting up to speed). These will be added to the cities that are REXing, to get them up to speed, AND that's why I'm mainly delaying with the markets, that and happiness issues from the war.

And CFC is not being very cooperative, so we might need the funds for upgrades.

I look at the long range, big picture and plan for it....

MoI E_T

	11-11-2003 04:40									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'd really like to see us having a GA during a portion of construction of the FP. (And if we're going to be relocating the 500+ shield palace as well, we really need to be having a GA during a portion of that.)

That said, I'm in almost absolute shock that it wasn't trigered defensively prior to now.

	11-11-2003 04:46									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I'd really like to see us having a GA during a portion of construction of the FP. (And if we're going to be relocating the 500+ shield palace as well, we really need to be having a GA during a portion of that.)

joncnunn, you keep on saying that the Palace will be an expensive (500+ Shield) project for us, and I keep on telling you that we're not going to build it.


Dominae

	12-11-2003 20:21									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

*bump*

What needs more discussion is what we do if we do NOT get our GA in this war, which is entirely possible given GCA's behavior thusfar...

	12-11-2003 21:31									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

REX like bunnies.

	12-11-2003 22:55									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Dominae REX like bunnies.

Well, of course.

I meant what we will do about getting a GA at a later date

	12-11-2003 23:11									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ah, that.

One of two things will happen, I think:

1. We'll trigger our GA when we finally decide to kill off CFC.

2. We'll become less squeamish about asking CFC to trigger our GA for us.


Dominae

	12-11-2003 23:52									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Ah, that. One of two things will happen, I think: 1. We'll trigger our GA when we finally decide to kill off CFC. 2. We'll become less squeamish about asking CFC to trigger our GA for us. Dominae

Since I'm against rigging our GA to be started by CFC unless we're serious about going to war with them, I suppose by your accounting we had better be taking a good look at wiping out CFC afterall...

I suppose what I'm really hearing from you is that we should have jumped on the chance to get our GA last turn when we had the chance?

	13-11-2003 00:13									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If we can get through the war with GCA without triggering our GCA, so much the better. Tha's not likely to happen; when GCA finally feels beaten, they will sacrifice a unit to one of our Mercs.

We have an awkward situation here: we want to REX, but our GA is about to be triggered any time. I suggest making the best of the situation by putting Irrigation down to produce good Food surplus which, coupled with the extra GA production, should give us some nice pump cities. It would be crazy not to expand at all during our GA, no matter how wasteful it seems.


Dominae

	13-11-2003 01:38									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Now that sounds like a good idea

	13-11-2003 03:21									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dominae If we can get through the war with GCA without triggering our GCA, so much the better. Tha's not likely to happen; when GCA finally feels beaten, they will sacrifice a unit to one of our Mercs.

How would they know that we aren't already in our GA?

	13-11-2003 03:36									#27
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

They don't! Which is why they don't see anything wrong with the way they are playing. They don't know that we know they didn't lose a battle against a NM yet....

	13-11-2003 06:32									#28
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Deleted

Last edited by joncnunn on 13-11-2003 at 06:46

	13-11-2003 06:35									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Never mind; read why in the other thread.

(Huh, don't know why editing previous post resulted in a new post.)

Last edited by joncnunn on 13-11-2003 at 06:47

	13-11-2003 10:12									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Huh?

How can GCA not know that we're not in our GA?
Have we been fighting some other team? No.
Have they ever lost a battle against our Mercs.? No.
Have they noticed a jump in our Power or other stat? No.


Dominae