13-11-2003 01:51									#61
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Isn't it great to live in a world where we can ban anyone or anything that upsets anyone? Let's clamp down on all forms of expression and stamp out individuality in all beings!

Let egalite, fraternite, et whatever else rot and replace it with brutal censorship.

Over 200 years ago we fought for personal freedoms and today we fight to take away freedoms. Like I said great world we live in.

	13-11-2003 02:05									#62
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Actually, only very recently a semblance of true equality was achieved.

	13-11-2003 02:11									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Yeah, whatever. Where oh where is the melting pot?

same place its always been Azazel.

The New Colossus, by Emma Lazarus


"The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

	13-11-2003 03:06									#64
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quote: Again, Christians do not feel threatened by religious symbolism of religions not their own because we are confident in our beliefs. This restriction merely illustrates how insecure atheists are in what they believe, that if to look on a cross on someones neck must be banned to make them comfortable.

You must hang out with some weird Christians, Ben.

	13-11-2003 04:12									#65
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quote: Because people aren't taught enough about scientific methods, and approaches. when you've got people that are more ignorant, it's easier to sway them that way.

Azazel:

So who's fault is that? The Christians or the schools? Just because the schools are not doing their jobs does not mean that you should bar the Christians from expressing their beliefs.

Mr. Mitchell:



Just because the Moslems erect a Mosque does not mean I ought to oppose the Moslems from doing so. That's the attitude, I'm talking about, that if we have religious freedom it will serve to protect all religions, and it will not be a threat to Christianity.

How is this attitude weird?

You should read Areopagitica, Milton argues for religious freedoms, as:

"Let truth and falsehood grapple. Whoever knew truth to be the lesser in a free and open encounter?"

That's a weird attitude?

	13-11-2003 04:17									#66
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quote: I wonder whether it's possible to wear a headscarf in a Christian private school. In those regions, where the anti-headscarf law is proposed, it's supported especially by people with a christian (catholic) background, so don't speak for all Christians.

Wernazuma:

There are some conservative Christians who do insist on headscarves. Even in the Catholic church.

The point here comes from your distinction of private schools. And here we get into freedom of association.

Private Catholic schools ought to be able to set a dress code for their students, if they so choose. This example includes a public school, to which all citizens must subsidise.

So what France needs is a concrete concept of Freedom of Association, rather than a ban on religious expression.

	13-11-2003 04:39									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Theben I saw nothing in the translated article barring students from personal displays. It seems to limit the display by the schools and faculty.

Considering recent history in France, I don't think that is a safe assumption to make.

	13-11-2003 04:53									#68
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I can understand that the French want to do this for the reason Azazel prescribes, the creation of a single French Identity that would be paramount, ahead of any other identity. The problem I see with this law is that it may encourage people that might be on the line to pull children out of state schools and into private schools, thus furthering, not weakening, the devide. I assume of course that independent private schools exist in France and that this law would not apply.

	13-11-2003 04:55									#69
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I'm all for banning French for Religion

I'm with Azazel, this really sucks. ACLU has gone French; FUClU

	13-11-2003 04:59									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Mr. Mitchell: Just because the Moslems erect a Mosque does not mean I ought to oppose the Moslems from doing so. That's the attitude, I'm talking about, that if we have religious freedom it will serve to protect all religions, and it will not be a threat to Christianity. How is this attitude weird? You should read Areopagitica, Milton argues for religious freedoms, as: "Let truth and falsehood grapple. Whoever knew truth to be the lesser in a free and open encounter?" That's a weird attitude?

No. The Christians you hang out with are wierd and odd from the rest of the group, because--like about 90% of any population--most of the ones I've met are threatened, ignorant, and couldn't know what "religious freedoms" if it kicked them in the ass.

Then again, it's completely believable that the educated 10% lives in Canada.

	13-11-2003 05:18									#71
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Ben: You got me wrong. I was not arguing against the fact that private schools may or should apply dress codes on their pupils. That can be debated too, but it's not the point here). I was rather arguing against the notion that Christians (and only them) are so firm in their faith that they "have no need to be offended by the display of other religion's symbols"-statement. It read as if this position was genuine to Christianity.

Of course, I'm against that stupid law. It is telling citizens to leave their religion at the wardrobe because now they enter the "public secular sphere"...

	13-11-2003 05:23									#72
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quote: "have no need to be offended by the display of other religion's symbols"-statement. It read as if this position was genuine to Christianity.

In the public square, yes, I would agree with you.

And it is not limited to Christians, there certainly are other faiths that do the same. I did not intend my statement to be limited to Christians, but as a Christian, it would be funny for me to speak of Jews and Muslims in the same regard.

Imagine if I said,

"Moslems have no need to be afraid of the other religion's symbols."

It implies that I speak for Moslems, and this is definitely not the case.

	13-11-2003 05:27									#73
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quote: The Christians you hang out with are wierd and odd from the rest of the group,

Thanks for the compliment, but I doubt I am even especially odd among Christians.

quote: ACLU has gone French; FUClU

LMFAO!

	13-11-2003 05:30									#74
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quote: the creation of a single French Identity that would be paramount, ahead of any other identity.

Gepap:

I remind you of the Inquisition. I think you would have a much different tone, if your beliefs were the ones being restricted for being heresy and therefore a threat to a CATHOLIC France.

	13-11-2003 08:00									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Hagbart Children shouldn't be forced to look at religiuos symbols while in school. I strongly support separation of school/state and religion.

You've no idea what separation of church and state is, if you think banning children from wearing religious emblems is part of it.

	13-11-2003 08:38									#76
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As part of freedom of speech, kids can wear religious symbols.

Teachers can, as well, if they don't overly emphasize it. ("Look, kids! Here is the CROSS! The CROSS of the LORD!!!")

It can't be discussed or placed on a school property, like a wall, though.

	13-11-2003 09:03									#77
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If people didn't try and shove their beliefs down the throats of everyone else, this wouldn't be a problem.

In Australia, this is not a problem. People are openly christian/muslim/gay/whatever and no one gives a rats! Anyone who does try to impose their "standards" on anyone else quickly gets put into their place.

I only ever saw crosses at a catholic school. You didn't have to be catholic, but it came at the cost of putting up with catholic symbols. If you don't like it, go to another school! Public schools have alweays been neutral, and everyone's happy!

	13-11-2003 09:03									#78
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Funny how no one feels the need to protect our kids from pornography or violent movies, but heaven forbid they should look upon a religious symbol!

Huh? Kids are overprotected from pornography and violent movies as it is.

	13-11-2003 09:04									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Lung If people didn't try and shove their beliefs down the throats of everyone else, this wouldn't be a problem. In Australia, this is not a problem. People are openly christian/muslim/gay/whatever and no one gives a rats! Anyone who does try to impose their "standards" on anyone else quickly gets put into their place. I only ever saw crosses at a catholic school. You didn't have to be catholic, but it came at the cost of putting up with catholic symbols. If you don't like it, go to another school! Public schools have alweays been neutral, and everyone's happy!

Quit taunting us.

	13-11-2003 18:18									#80
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Huh? Kids are overprotected from pornography and violent movies as it is.

I was talking about when I was living in France (back in the 80's and early 90's).

My teachers would routinely show horror movies and violent movies at the end of the class year. I don't recall a unanimous movement concerned that those movies may be inapopriate, but there is one to want to ban the chador.

Why is a horror movie with its blood and gore ok for kids, but seeing a muslim girl wearing a chador somehow harmful or inapropriate?!?!

	13-11-2003 18:42									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I wonder whether it's possible to wear a headscarf in a Christian private school. In those regions, where the anti-headscarf law is proposed, it's supported especially by people with a christian (catholic) background, so don't speak for all Christians. A real believer, of course, can never be shaken in his faith so easily, but that's true for all religions (and atheists). So, no special Christian attitude here.

In the current state of the projected law, it would be possible to wear a headscarf in private schools.

It is wrong to believe that this problem is raised by Christian people. It is primarily a concern for the defenders of the so called laïcité, including me. The public school cannot authorise the children not to follow the ordinary cursus (chemical lessons and sports), cannot allow breaks for pray during lectures, in the same way that public swimming pools cannot be closed to women when men use it (and vice-versa) and that public hospitals cannot open separate departments for muslim women that refuse to be examined by male doctors.

All these claims are made for political reasons and have to be rejected. Equal treatment for all in the public sphere, and everything allowed in the private one is a fair principle.

	13-11-2003 19:46									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Again, Christians do not feel threatened by religious symbolism of religions not their own because we are confident in our beliefs. This restriction merely illustrates how insecure atheists are in what they believe, that if to look on a cross on someones neck must be banned to make them comfortable.

Actually, I find crosses useful. It points out the people who need to be avoided or mocked.

quote: Too late! If you have to ban crosses, then you are already a sick society.

Sounds like a perfect society to me. We need a society where all religions are banned.

	13-11-2003 21:09									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Actually, I find crosses useful. It points out the people who need to be avoided or mocked. Sounds like a perfect society to me. We need a society where all religions are banned.

A shame the Soviet Union collapsed, you would have fit right in.

	13-11-2003 21:32									#84
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quote: Sounds like a perfect society to me. We need a society where all religions are banned.

BTW, the muslim headscarf, or chador, is NOT AN ITEM OF RELIGION. I just asked the Turkish family next door. It is an item of ARABIC/MIDDLEEASTERN CULTURE. The Koran says NOTHING about women covering their heads. It is similar to the "thing" in Victorian England that women couldn't show their legs - not even their ankles. Banning the wearing of the Chador is a victory for women's freedom, and not a blow against religious freedoms. Most Muslim women are FORCED to dress this way, or face social shame from their families. Or even physical violence, as was reported last week in Germany.

-Jam

	14-11-2003 00:41									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski BTW, the muslim headscarf, or chador, is NOT AN ITEM OF RELIGION. I just asked the Turkish family next door. It is an item of ARABIC/MIDDLEEASTERN CULTURE. The Koran says NOTHING about women covering their heads. It is similar to the "thing" in Victorian England that women couldn't show their legs - not even their ankles. Banning the wearing of the Chador is a victory for women's freedom, and not a blow against religious freedoms. Most Muslim women are FORCED to dress this way, or face social shame from their families. Or even physical violence, as was reported last week in Germany. -Jam

I don't ask my neighbors for questions about Christian faith, even though they go to church...
1. on the religious/cultural thing:
Definitely the headscarf is a religious item. Almost all muslim scholars view it as obligatory for women to wear it, a very few, and mainly in the west, do only "recommend" it. It's also in the Turkish variant of Islam, it just happens that Ataturk, in order to secularize the state, forbid it ~1925 (don't know exactly) and there's a huge movement in Turkey to lift the ban. The headscarf exists in almost all regions, where islam is practicized and in all regions, where it's better institutionalized.
There's a sura in the Quran, that say something about the headscarf (hijab): Q33:59

quote: "O Prophet, say to thy wives and daughters and the believing women, that they draw their veils close to them (the more moderate translation only reads: "lengthen their garnments"); so it is likelier they will be known, and not hurt. God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate."

Beside that, there's reference to it in the sunna (life of Muhammad), which is also an uncontested extremely important source of Islamic faith. That doesn't mean that one can't think of interpretations that don't require women to wear the hijab ("lengthen their garnments" doesn't need to mean hijab), but still its use has a religious foundation, not a cultural one.
On the other hand, the Niqab or face veil surely is a cultural thing, like the burka.
2. On female oppression
Yes, many muslim women view the hijab as a tool of oppression themselves and abandon wearing it in our free society. Yet, there's also self-confident muslim women who voluntarily wear it. IIRC, the Iranian oppositional Nobel prize winner (and fighter for female rights) always wears the hijab, because she wants to and is showing it proudly. Of course, muslim societies are acting in a heavily intolerant spirit if they obligue every woman, whether she is muslima or not, whether she likes the hijab or not and that's what hopefully seperates our societies from those.
The problem of domestic pressure and violence is existing too and it is very much a problem in muslim families, but not exclusive to it. It's also a problem with other faiths (many sects), also within certain social classes etc. and a very difficult one to solve. Even when removing the headscarf, you don't fight the structure responsible for such opression.
In our society, a woman has the right to leave her husband, to do what she wants and when the family uses violence or if it's an act against human dignity (and wearing a headscarf hardly is), they're commiting a crime. It's really that simple. It is very dangerous, if our society claims to be able to judge about an issue like "social pressure" or "female oppression" on such evidence as simply wearing an item.

	14-11-2003 02:53									#86
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quote: We need a society where all religions are banned.

And now we see the coercion inherant in communism .

	14-11-2003 03:10									#87
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quote: We need a society where all religions are banned.

People have the right to be ignorant.

(For the sake of the thread, I won't name names on who's ignorant.)

	14-11-2003 06:21									#88
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No one ever killed someone in the name of atheism.

	14-11-2003 08:45									#89
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat I just saw on the website for Lemonde, that the French Legislature wants to pass a new law that would ban all religious and political symbols from public schools. And here I thought France was about tolerance and diversity. For those who can read French: Les députés pour des "disposition législative" contre les signes religieux dans les écoles publiques AFP | 12.11.03 | 14h02 La mission d'information parlementaire sur les signes religieux à l'école s'est prononcée mercredi à "l'unanimité" de ses membres pour une "disposition législative" interdisant "expressement le port visible de tout signe d'appartenance religieuse et politique" à "l'école publique", selon le relevé de conclusions obtenu par l'AFP.Cette disposition prendra la forme "soit d'un projet de loi, soit d'une proposition de loi spécifique, soit d'un amendement à un texte plus large concernant l'école".Cette interdiction à l'école publique, c'est-à-dire "dans les collèges et les lycées" a "recueilli l'unanimité des membres de la mission", selon le relevé de conclusions.Les membres de la mission présidée par le président de l'Assemblée nationale Jean-Louis Debré ont en outre exclu du champ d'application de cette interdiction les établissements privés sous contrat avec l'Etat "en raison de leur caractère propre dont le principe a été reconnu par le Conseil constitutionnel".Le projet de texte élaboré par M. Debré prévoyait d'appliquer cette interdiction dans les écoles privées sous contrat. Mais ce point n'a pas recueilli l'unanimité de membres de la mission, selon le relevé de conclusions.Un "consensus s'est dégagé pour constater qu'il n'y avait pas lieu d'appliquer cette disposition aux départements d'Alsace-Moselle compte tenu de leur régime spécifique".Les membres ont souhaité que cette interdiction du port visible de tout signe religieux soit "accompagnée de mesures" destinées à expliquer la laïcité comme "la formation obligatoire à la laïcité des personnels enseignants", "l'enseignement de la laïcité (...) dès l'école primaire" ou "l'élaboration et la diffusion de guides".

My translation: the commissom on religious suymobols in school decided "unanimnously" on wednesday for a "legislative intervention" agiainst the "showing or wearing of all political or religious insignia" in "public schools", in accordance with the conclusions of the AFP. Such an intervention would take the form of "either of a specific law, or of a series of laws, or of an extension of an existant law"

too lazy to translate rest right now.

	14-11-2003 11:53									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Theben No one ever killed someone in the name of atheism.

atheist nations have diffinitely killed others because they had a religion

so that is a complete and utter lie

Jon Miller