14-11-2003 12:30									#91
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"In the name of atheism" is the key phrase. So unless you're one of those wackos who equates atheism=communism or nazism, try again.

	14-11-2003 12:37									#92
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if you kill someone for following any type of religion

than it is for atheism

Jon Miller

	14-11-2003 12:38									#93
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you scare me as much as the freakiest of fundamentalists (like that gay hater who goes arround dancing on gays graves)

Jon Miller

	14-11-2003 12:43									#94
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quote: if you kill someone for following any type of religion than it is for atheism

This makes no sense.

quote: you scare me as much as the freakiest of fundamentalists (like that gay hater who goes arround dancing on gays graves)

Don't know why. I just get tired of jesus freaks after a while and this time I felt like tweaking ya *tweak tweak*

	14-11-2003 14:48									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen You think you should be banned from wearig a Magen David under your shirt in a public school?

One of my freinds got banned for carrying a bottle of Mogen-David under his shirt, can he sue?

	14-11-2003 15:33									#96
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Come on, banning religious clothing from schools is such an obvious thing to do. It will help

a) The children who get laughed at at school won't looks so ridiculous
b) More chance that children will break free of their parent's superstitions
c) Increase in rationalism and atheism

All schools should have a uniform anyway. A uniform covers a multitude of social and economic problems. Who knows if a kid is jewish, or poor, or fashionable, etc if he's wearing the same as anyone else.

But the main thing about this law is the removal of crucifixes from classroom walls. There's no good reason for them to be there, and it gives the pupils the false impression that christianity is a good thing, and something to be proud of.

Being religious is something people should be ashamed of, and they should not flaunt it in public unless they expect ridicule.

-Jam

	14-11-2003 16:21									#97
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You fascist!

	14-11-2003 17:05									#98
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Being anti-religious has nothing to do with political beliefs Azazel.

But I assume the means you're being sarcastic, yes?

But really, if I beleived in all kinds of superstitious rubbish, made up by someone else hundreds of years ago, then I ceratinly would keep quiet about it - either that or be prepared to face ridicule.

-Jam

	14-11-2003 20:24									#99
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I think he was being sarcastic, but I'm not:

You Fascist!

	15-11-2003 06:18									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Sounds like a perfect society to me. We need a society where all religions are banned.

Are you trolling? Why on earth would we need that? Banned != Not Followed. Religion is not something that needs to be outlawed. It will wither away of its own accord to the status of a quaint hobby soon enough.

Banning would actually be counter-productive in this case.

	15-11-2003 06:25									#101
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quote: Banning would actually be counter-productive in this case.

A look at the Central Asian provinces in the former USSR shows that statement to be totally true.

	30-11-2003 23:35									#102
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I can't believe I missed this one.

First, there is a French specificity in the regard of religion and school. The principles of Puclic Schooling in France have been laid out more than a century ago, in 1880. Since then, Public schools have to be Free, Laic and Mandatory. For comparison purpose, let's say these principles are as sacro-sanct to the French Schooling system (and all people involved) as the principles of the US constitution are sacrosanct to the American political system.
As a result, crosses and other religious symbols or doctrines have disappeared from the French public schools since 123 years. Private Schools (about 17% of French students) can still promote whatever religion they want. The students could still have pendants or other religious ju-ju, as long as it was too obvious.

With the recent increase of Muslim observance, and the even more recent religious/communitarist surge in the Jewish community, the old principles of laicism at school were shaken. In a supposedly laic school, it was not uncommon to see islamic scarves, and one could even sometimes spot Kippas.

For about a decade, no decision was taken, because the decision-makers were torn between the laicist principles and the need to give an adequate education to all regardless of religion. Most French people (at least within the educational system) were torn the same way.
Some School directors fired students wearing obvious religious symbols, some others tolerated it. Today's law has been rushed after a recent crisis.

Secondly, this law doesn't punish the fact that a student wears any religious display. It only punishes those who wear displays that are "ostentatoire", i.e. displays that are worn in order for others to see it.
This means, if you have a pendant with a cross under your shirt, you'll have no problem whatsoever. If you proudly wear a "Allah Rules over you all" T-shirt, then you'll have a problem.
One of the problems with law is that there is a huge grey zone. If a discreet religious pendant is over the shirt, is it "ostentatoire"? If a girl wears a muslim scarf, if this an "ostentatoire" display of religion, or is is it observance only aimed at her own spirituality?

Besides, the law doesn't change the old debate at school, whether laicism means that we accept any expression of religion, or whether it means schools must be religion-free. Try to answer that question

In short, this law doesn't solve anything.

	30-11-2003 23:55									#103
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quote: you scare me as much as the freakiest of fundamentalists (like that gay hater who goes arround dancing on gays graves)

Fred Phelps, but whoever you're replying to (Theban, War of Rat, whoever) isn't acting like him.

	01-12-2003 06:53									#104
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quote: displays that are worn in order for others to see it.

Spiffor:

For the sole purpose? Your example does not translate well to the Muslim and Jewish examples, or even to a Christian necklace. The whole point to wearing these has more to do with conforming to religious requirements, rather than any effort to proselytise.

	01-12-2003 07:12									#105
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why not ban it entirely from the country?

	02-12-2003 04:17									#106
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Ben:

This is precisely why a Christian/Jewish/Muslim necklace isn't concerned by the law. And this is precisely why kippas and muslim scarves belong to the huge "grey zone", where we can't say for sure whether the display intends at being shown, or whether it intends at fulfilling one's own spirituality.

This is precisely why this laws solves nothing. The "grey zone" is as bad as before.

Dissident:
Only public Schools are under the great founding principle of laicism. By the same token, politics is supposed banned from school as well. Both political and religious proselytism are supposed to be out of the school's territory. The Muslim scarves haven't been an issue at all for other things than schools.

	02-12-2003 12:00									#107
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I think everyone in public schools should wear uniforms. I also have no problem with a total ban on the display of religious and political symbols in schools.

There is a recent SCOTUS decision on Jewish skullcaps and the military. The Supremes said it a military ban on wearing such headgear indoors was not a violation of "free exercise of religion." I think the Supremes were right.

	02-12-2003 12:21									#108
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wow Ned, not the answer I expected from you...

I agree with a total ban on the display of religious and political symbols in schools. As for uniforms? I don't like uniforms, but I think each local school district should have the right to decide this for themselves. However, if you are not going to have uniforms, I don't think it's right to prevent kids from wearing religious symbols or garb.

I also think that teachers should not wear exposed religious symbols. They are employees of the school, and the school is a part of the state, and the state should be religion free. If they don't like it, they are welcome to quit and teach at a private school.

I don't get what the big deal is. Kids are at school for like 6-8 hours. Is it SO TERRIBLE that you can't wear religious things? I'm especially disappointed in the response from Christians hear. What does the ten commandments say about worshipping graven images and idols? IIRC, faith is what is important. I don't recall the commandment saying, "Thou shall wear a cross at all times!"

get off your high horses.

	02-12-2003 13:24									#109
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...especially since Christians are barely concerned with the law. I don't remember having seen any "ostentatoire" display of Christianty during my whole stay at School (14 years).

In comparison with the very many T-shirts featuring an agressive American flag, a Hammer&Scickle, or a Che Guevara, I hardly see these religious symbols as an issue