12-11-2003 18:45									#1
	France wants to ban religious and political symbols from schools Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I just saw on the website for Lemonde, that the French Legislature wants to pass a new law that would ban all religious and political symbols from public schools.

And here I thought France was about tolerance and diversity.

For those who can read French:

Les députés pour des "disposition législative" contre les signes religieux dans les écoles publiques
AFP | 12.11.03 | 14h02


La mission d'information parlementaire sur les signes religieux à l'école s'est prononcée mercredi à "l'unanimité" de ses membres pour une "disposition législative" interdisant "expressement le port visible de tout signe d'appartenance religieuse et politique" à "l'école publique", selon le relevé de conclusions obtenu par l'AFP.Cette disposition prendra la forme "soit d'un projet de loi, soit d'une proposition de loi spécifique, soit d'un amendement à un texte plus large concernant l'école".Cette interdiction à l'école publique, c'est-à-dire "dans les collèges et les lycées" a "recueilli l'unanimité des membres de la mission", selon le relevé de conclusions.Les membres de la mission présidée par le président de l'Assemblée nationale Jean-Louis Debré ont en outre exclu du champ d'application de cette interdiction les établissements privés sous contrat avec l'Etat "en raison de leur caractère propre dont le principe a été reconnu par le Conseil constitutionnel".Le projet de texte élaboré par M. Debré prévoyait d'appliquer cette interdiction dans les écoles privées sous contrat. Mais ce point n'a pas recueilli l'unanimité de membres de la mission, selon le relevé de conclusions.Un "consensus s'est dégagé pour constater qu'il n'y avait pas lieu d'appliquer cette disposition aux départements d'Alsace-Moselle compte tenu de leur régime spécifique".Les membres ont souhaité que cette interdiction du port visible de tout signe religieux soit "accompagnée de mesures" destinées à expliquer la laïcité comme "la formation obligatoire à la laïcité des personnels enseignants", "l'enseignement de la laïcité (...) dès l'école primaire" ou "l'élaboration et la diffusion de guides".

	12-11-2003 18:55									#2
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That's great news! Too bad we aren't as enlightened as the French

	12-11-2003 18:57									#3
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what´s wrong with it? some pupils could feel disturbed when being confronted with muslim, budddhist, hindu, scientologist or whatever symbols.

	12-11-2003 19:01									#4
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trop mauvais je ne sais pas le français

	12-11-2003 19:03									#5
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translation for the lazy...

quote: The parliamentary mission of information on the religious signs at the school decided Wednesday with "the unanimity" of its members for a "legislative provision" prohibiting "expressement the port visible of any sign of religious and political affiliation" at "the public school", according to the statement of conclusions obtained by AFP.Cette provision will take the form "either of a bill, or of a specific private bill, or of an amendment to a broader text relating to the école".Cette prohibition at the public school, i.e. "in the colleges and the colleges" "collected the unanimity of the members of the mission", from the French National Assembly Jean-Louis Debré moreover excluded from the field of application of this prohibition the establishments deprived under contract with the State "because of their own character whose principle was recognized by the Council constitutionnel".Le project of text worked out by Mr. Debré envisaged to apply this prohibition in the schools deprived under contract. But this point did not collect the unanimity of members of the mission, according to the statement of conclusions.Un "consensus emerged to note that it was not necessary to apply this provision to the departments of the Alsace-Moselle taking into account their mode spécifique".Les members wished that this prohibition of the visible port of any religious sign "be accompanied by measures" intended to explain secularity like "the obligatory formation with the secularity of the teaching personnel", "the teaching of secularity (...) as of the primary school" or "making and the diffusion of guides".

	12-11-2003 19:05									#6
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nope, dont understand that either...

	12-11-2003 19:06									#7
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Sounds good to me.

	12-11-2003 19:11									#8
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quote: Originally posted by oedo what´s wrong with it? some pupils could feel disturbed when being confronted with muslim, budddhist, hindu, scientologist or whatever symbols.

Are Americans the only ones who have learned of this wonderful idea called freedom of religion???

	12-11-2003 19:24									#9
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We know pretty well about freedom of (and from) religion. It means we dont have to look at a friggin cross in our class-rooms.
Public buildings have to stay neutral. I dont want my tax money get wasted for propaganda efforts.

You can wear your religios stuff all you want, but please leave me and my money alone...

	12-11-2003 19:25									#10
	Re: France wants to ban religious and political symbols from schools Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat the French Legislature wants to pass a new law that would ban all religious and political symbols from public schools.

Wow, now they want to be just like the US. When did America's Democratic Party start lobbying for this crap in France too?

	12-11-2003 19:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY We know pretty well about freedom of (and from) religion. It means we dont have to look at a friggin cross in our class-rooms. Public buildings have to stay neutral. I dont want my tax money get wasted for propaganda efforts. You can wear your religios stuff all you want, but please leave me and my money alone...

First, why are you so offended if say somone is wearing a little cross around their neck? If you are atheist, the cross does not mean anything to you, so what do you care?

So you can wear a religious symbol but only where the government says you can? That's not freedom of religion!

	12-11-2003 19:39									#13
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quote: Are Americans the only ones who have learned of this wonderful idea called freedom of religion???

what Daniel said. freedom of religion does also include NOT being confronted with any confession you don´t believe in. or would you like it if your teachers would praise Allah day by day?

personally I couldn´t care less. I was in a christian school, although I turned out becoming an agnostic.

	12-11-2003 19:47									#14
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat First, why are you so offended if say somone is wearing a little cross around their neck? If you are atheist, the cross does not mean anything to you, so what do you care?

It's not about a religious symbol around the neck. A cross around the neck isn't constantly visible, and can be hidden under a pullower.

It's mainly about the Chador, or a cross against a wall in a classroom. I think it's normal.

Religion and politic MUST remain outside schools.

	12-11-2003 19:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by oedo what Daniel said. freedom of religion does also include NOT being confronted with any confession you don´t believe in. or would you like it if your teachers would praise Allah day by day?

Freedom of religion means that someone can express their faith without government interference. So, it is not really freedom if the government can regulate your expression of religion in certain places and in certain forms.

There is a big difference between a teacher reciting the Koran out loud in class, and a person wearing a little cross? I could see how reciting the Koran out loud or reciting the Bible out loud would intrude on other people's beliefs. But there is nothing intrusive about wearing a little cross around your neck! This law goes as far as to ban any religious or political symbol in public school. A student could not even wear a little cross around the neck.

	12-11-2003 19:55									#16
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat There is a big difference between a teacher reciting the Koran out loud in class, and a person wearing a little cross? I could see how reciting the Koran out loud or reciting the Bible out loud would intrude on other people's beliefs. But there is nothing intrusive about wearing a little cross around your neck!

huh! I agree.

	12-11-2003 19:58									#17
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quote: Originally posted by rixxe It's not about a religious symbol around the neck. A cross around the neck isn't constantly visible, and can be hidden under a pullower. It's mainly about the Chador, or a cross against a wall in a classroom. I think it's normal. Religion and politic MUST remain outside schools.

What's so wrong with wearing a chador ?!? It is really just a big long black piece of cloth. If you didn't know it was worn by muslim women, you wouldn't even know it was religious.

Why can't a Jewish boy come to school wearing the little cap on his head, or a Christian boy wear a cross around his neck, or a muslim girl come to school with a chador? Tolerance and diversity are a good thing. And a school is probably the best place to teach tolerance! People can learn from each other and learn to apreciate each other!

Why be tolerant only in certain "acceptable" places????

	12-11-2003 20:01									#18
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Yeah, whatever.

Where oh where is the melting pot?

	12-11-2003 20:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY We know pretty well about freedom of (and from) religion. It means we dont have to look at a friggin cross in our class-rooms. Public buildings have to stay neutral. I dont want my tax money get wasted for propaganda efforts. You can wear your religios stuff all you want, but please leave me and my money alone...

French schools are banning wearing a cross or a star of david, or if your a female muslim a veil....

	12-11-2003 20:10									#20
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and it's great that they do.

	12-11-2003 20:11									#21
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You think you should be banned from wearig a Magen David under your shirt in a public school?

	12-11-2003 20:16									#22
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The thing is that this law goes way too far. If it just prohibit schools from displaying religious symbols, like a big cross on the wall by the balckboard, or a teacher/student from reciting religious doctrines out loud, that would be one thing. But to ban all religious or political symbols is excessive.

What if a kid draws a little Jesus fish on his notebook? Is he/she going to be punished or expelled from school for something small like THAT? Under this law, yes, and that is wrong!

	12-11-2003 20:30									#23
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I saw nothing in the translated article barring students from personal displays. It seems to limit the display by the schools and faculty.

	12-11-2003 20:41									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Theben I saw nothing in the translated article barring students from personal displays. It seems to limit the display by the schools and faculty.

I don't think the article is 100% clear on this. "port visible" which translates "visible display" could include the case of students wearing symbols on their clothes and such. The article does not specifically say that the law only deals with public displays or that the law exempts students. In fact, another article specifically mentionned wanting to ban students from wearing the chador.

	12-11-2003 20:44									#25
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why should the faculty be limited?

Jon Miller

	12-11-2003 20:49									#26
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quote: Originally posted by oedo what´s wrong with it? some pupils could feel disturbed when being confronted with muslim, budddhist, hindu, scientologist or whatever symbols.

Yeah we wouldnt want them to be exposed to different ideas. I mean, it might actually prepare them for the REAL world.

	12-11-2003 20:49									#27
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat What if a kid draws a little Jesus fish on his notebook? Is he/she going to be punished or expelled from school for something small like THAT? Under this law, yes, and that is wrong!

This isn´t said in the text you quoted. Since you think it is not to "100% clear" I wonder where you draw this conlusion from.

	12-11-2003 20:49									#28
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A Pariiiiis quant un amour fleri ca fait pentant de deux coeur qui se ba au printeeeemps.

	12-11-2003 20:52									#29
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro This isn´t said in the text you quoted. Since you think it is not to "100% clear" I wonder where you draw this conlusion from.

I am just asking a hypothetical.

	12-11-2003 21:08									#30
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If it goes any farther than banning displays that are actually part of the building and doctrinal recitations by teachers, then it goes to far. If Vesayen is correct, this is rediculous. If you want to have freedom from seeing religion expressed in any form, you can borrow my ice pick and gouge out your eyes.