14-11-2003 00:16									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Theories that fail repeated trials usually get discarded.

We could say the same about global capitalism, after all, it fails to provide a decent standard of living to the majority of the world's population and concentrates resources in the hands of the view. No matter what you define communism as, this evidence stated above would hardly hold up capitalism as a glittering success

	14-11-2003 00:21									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison this evidence stated above would hardly hold up capitalism as a glittering success

Still existing while communism sits atop the "ash heap of history" doesn't cut it for you? Anyway would you like to compare it to East Germany where the Communist government let the economy languish to such an extent that even making a telephone call was an adventure? Or maybe the economic miracle known as Russia? I won't even bother mentioning North Korea.

	14-11-2003 00:23									#33
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quote: Communism was created by people thinking scientifically, and sensibly. So the rich westerners came up with capitalist economics in responce.

This is what my snide comment was in lieu to. A blatant troll worthy of spam. I will not take such things seriously.

	14-11-2003 00:24									#34
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quote: To an outsider it demonstrates what a deep impact the likes of Reagan and McCarthy have left on your national psyche.

Oh bullshit. Now you're really fishing. Care to cast that net a little wider?

Again, I'd say the reaction has more to do with past experience on 'poly than the "national psyche." To the extent there is such a thing.

-Arrian

	14-11-2003 00:24									#35
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I am not talking about communism here, you are evading the question. How in the same respect is capitalism any more of a success?

	14-11-2003 00:26									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison How in the same respect is capitalism any more of a success?

Still existing while communism sits atop the "ash heap of history" doesn't cut it for you?

	14-11-2003 00:28									#37
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You do as you please Japher, you were the one that started the nature of this discussion. Just remember, we've all given serious thought to these questions, you're not the only one. To try and dismiss what other people have thought with a mere wave of the hand is not sufficient. If you decide to use this time for a withdrawal, I will consider my point as registered.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Oh bullshit. Now you're really fishing. Care to cast that net a little wider? Again, I'd say the reaction has more to do with past experience on 'poly than the "national psyche." To the extent there is such a thing. -Arrian

I'm not fishing, I am homing in on a particular point that is visible to everyone else. Do you see hordes of other nationalities giving such a crap? No, this response seems to be a very typical US-centric response.

	14-11-2003 00:29									#38
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Perhaps PH should come live in the bay area for a while. There are more communists here than anywhere else in the country. If communism works so well and is so great why have I become more conservative since moving here?

quote: How in the same respect is capitalism any more of a success?

What I got from the initial post was that capitalism was a response to communism, and since communism is but a ghost in our society today one can blame capitalism for the fall of communism...

Communism as a government of a good number of people does not work because of the equal but not equal premise.

Capitalism is better because that line is recognized and the means to become more equal is obtainable.

	14-11-2003 00:30									#39
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Exists being the appropriate word DinoDoc...it is a self perpetuating system. So your point being?

	14-11-2003 00:31									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I am not talking about communism here, you are evading the question. How in the same respect is capitalism any more of a success?

Because it's better than anything else humans have tried so far.

	14-11-2003 00:31									#41
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Provost, you're not making much sense here: You're accusing somebody of trolling in a troll thread? You're accusing somebody of defending something in an attack thread? You throw out generalizations while accusing others of doing the same?

Are you ok, man? We're here to talk.

	14-11-2003 00:33									#42
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quote: I'm not fishing, I am homing in on a particular point that is visible to everyone else. Do you see hordes of other nationalities giving such a crap? No, this response seems to be a very typical US-centric response.

Again, prior 'poly experience, at least for me. The majority of these threads either start with, or evolve into, being all about the evil american capitalists and how America is to blame for everything and it's not fair, and omg it's horrible! Sometimes it starts with "the west" and eventually becomes "America." Sometimes it's more blatant and just comes out firing against the American Imperialist PigDogs.

Some of my countrymen are used to it and respond accordingly: crap in, crap out.

-Arrian

	14-11-2003 00:34									#43
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Of course communism was a response to capitalism, I am most certainly not going to deny that. Marx said it himself if you read his work...Feudalism gave way to capitalism (or equivalent term) as it could not keep pace of movement in technology and production (ie, the Industrial Revolution). The issue Marx raised was, although capitalism was functional, was it capable of the distribution of resources needed in such an era. So I am certainly not going to disagree with you there.

	14-11-2003 00:36									#44
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I think PH thought this would of been a good topic for debate, and I spammed it before he had a chance to turn into a serious descussion; I apologize for that.

PH asks why is capitalism historically better than communism? Afterall governments of both kinds fall.

That's a good question.

I ask why I should take communism seriously? Afterall, communist countries are always having internal problems of great proportions in comparison to capitalist countries. Starvation, civil wars, iron rules, etc...

	14-11-2003 00:37									#45
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Thankyou Japher...I think you have just described the question I was trying to ask...

	14-11-2003 00:43									#46
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I agree that communism was a response to the deficiencies of early capitalism. However, this doesn't mean that communism is a better system in any fashion. I would rather claim that communism has become a tool to assist the evolution of capitalism.

	14-11-2003 00:47									#47
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quote: I think PH thought this would of been a good topic for debate, and I spammed it before he had a chance to turn into a serious descussion

Well yeah, I assumed that's why he got annoyed.

PH - I was just nitpicking at your nitpick, so to speak.

It IS actually an interesting topic. I'm just tired of the form it usually takes.

-Arrian

	14-11-2003 00:49									#48
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I think communism is too prone to internal collapse due to abuse of power and the lack of competition needed to drive up standards of living.

	14-11-2003 00:51									#49
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Communism, in my mind, has become nothing but the daydreaming of college intellectuals who have no touch to reality.

	14-11-2003 00:59									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless I agree that communism was a response to the deficiencies of early capitalism. However, this doesn't mean that communism is a better system in any fashion. I would rather claim that communism has become a tool to assist the evolution of capitalism.

Evolution of society indeed. I have become fairly cynical about all this in my old age Either way we have troubles that are colossal. I do consider communism to be the ultimate form of non-religious optimism in our species. And it would be nice to share that level of optimism but I do not. But from my perception, the balance of forces are too far in one direction currently, and that is that of the capitalist class. For the productivity of our society I don't think we are reaping it's full rewards...there does need to be a change, perhaps a change in working class mentality to create a more central equilibrium. But it is not worth being idealistic either way, and I am not going to be.

	14-11-2003 02:12									#51
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"I do consider communism to be the ultimate form of non-religious optimism in our species. "

Really? I've noticed the opposite, that the Left is essentially a defeatist, pessimistic ideology that is held by, well, pessimists. As you, yourself are.

	14-11-2003 02:34									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Evolution of society indeed. I have become fairly cynical about all this in my old age Either way we have troubles that are colossal. I do consider communism to be the ultimate form of non-religious optimism in our species. And it would be nice to share that level of optimism but I do not. But from my perception, the balance of forces are too far in one direction currently, and that is that of the capitalist class. For the productivity of our society I don't think we are reaping it's full rewards...there does need to be a change, perhaps a change in working class mentality to create a more central equilibrium. But it is not worth being idealistic either way, and I am not going to be.

Communism sounds good in theory. Anything that doesn't work in reality is bad, regardless how good it sounds in theory.

Also, I have never heard of the word "capitalist class" here. Maybe you Brits have different class consciousness?

	14-11-2003 02:50									#53
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"Also, I have never heard of the word "capitalist class" here."

That's because we're controlled by the capitalists. Duh!

	14-11-2003 02:57									#54
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Capitalism has been around since someone traded a fish for a loaf of bread.
It is man's nature.

And communists are delusional to think otherwise. Look around, do you see people helping eachother freely? Maybe the best of people spend 10% of their lives helping others.... and these are a very, very tiny portion of the world population.

	14-11-2003 03:21									#55
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT That's because we're controlled by the capitalists. Duh!

What's with this we crap? Aren't you one of those capitalist pig-dogs?

	14-11-2003 03:29									#56
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Oh, yeah. I forgot in the heat of debate.

<--- pig-dog and loving it.

	14-11-2003 03:32									#57
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If one knows anything about capitalism, it arrised when one man traded his loaf of bread for the other mans labour

	14-11-2003 03:37									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Commie Chocobo If one knows anything about capitalism, it arrised when one man traded his loaf of bread for the other mans labour

And the "Pithy comment of the Day" award goes to... Commie Chocobo!

	14-11-2003 04:07									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber thats right. Crack is so 90's. I hear pot is making a big comeback in Europe?

That was pre-war. Now it is barbiturates. It's called socialized medicine.

	14-11-2003 13:58									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Communism sounds good in theory. Anything that doesn't work in reality is bad, regardless how good it sounds in theory. Also, I have never heard of the word "capitalist class" here. Maybe you Brits have different class consciousness?

Ruling class, priveleged class. Despite how you try and claim they don't exist, they do. Although in theory you are supposed to be able to rise from the gutter, this is rare. Once born into privelege always born into privilege - it is damn unlikely you are going to rise far above your origins. Most of this is probably more of an indictment against the nature of British society.