12-11-2003 21:46									#1
	Capitalism, a false ideology? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

'Communists created a straw man and called it Capitalism, and used it much as the Christians use Satan, in order to scare people into their flock. Deal with it, your government is based on sh!t.'

-Sikander.

(:b

Back when the communist theory was being developed, the kind of people that ran Western Europe and America (masters of the poor) had no counter to a theory that offered the worlds hordes of workers a just society where nobody got exploited and resources where shared out fairly (that's the communist theory anyway, in truth it just makes the state all-powerful, and then gives that power to those more equal then the rest).

Communism was created by people thinking scientifically, and sensibly.

So the rich westerners came up with capitalist economics in responce.

	12-11-2003 21:47									#2
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Capitalism is an ideology?

	12-11-2003 21:48									#3
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You really are a problem child, eh

Hoopla, your nuts!! How do I know?

quote: Communism was created by people thinking scientifically, and sensibly.

	12-11-2003 21:50									#4
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child So the rich westerners came up with capitalist economics in responce.

Adam Smith lived in the 18th century. Karl Marx in the 19th. This had to be one of the easiest posts to rip apart in awhile.

	12-11-2003 21:51									#5
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Thats just evil capitalist propaganda

	12-11-2003 21:59									#6
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Communism was an expression of the human need for humane conditions and the end of exploitation. A movement of self awarness and emancipation of massses which were living in utter deprivation. People who have not lived in such conditions and are prejudist cannot hope to understand that communism was a real necessaity rising from specific socioeconomic and political needs.

	12-11-2003 22:06									#7
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Communism was an expression of the human need for humane conditions and the end of exploitation. A movement of self awarness and emancipation of massses which were living in utter deprivation. People who have not lived in such conditions and are prejudist cannot hope to understand that communism was a real necessaity rising from specific socioeconomic and political needs.

That's true, even though the Communism turned out be a far worse alternative. Nevertheless, the threat of Communism forced Capitalism itself to evolve, kind like the Matrix-Human competition.

	12-11-2003 22:10									#8
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Communism was an expression of the human need for humane conditions and the end of exploitation. A movement of self awarness and emancipation of massses which were living in utter deprivation. People who have not lived in such conditions and are prejudist cannot hope to understand that communism was a real necessaity rising from specific socioeconomic and political needs.

Still smoking that crack uh.

	12-11-2003 22:12									#9
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Still utterly clueless Spray, but I luv ya

	12-11-2003 22:54									#10
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If the communists were the only ones responsible for the plight of the poor, the thesis might be right. But they were not.

The problem was not their concern for the poor but the solution they proposed. As we all know, what they proposed was a radical takeover of property by the workers and a future government of the workers, by the workers and for the workers. However idealist this might sound, in practice it does not work as we have learned from history. But the threat proposed by communists did cause a reaction: Fascism. And we all know just how much Fascism benefited the world.

Last edited by Ned on 12-11-2003 at 23:06

	12-11-2003 22:55									#11
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Still utterly clueless Spray, but I luv ya

thats right. Crack is so 90's. I hear pot is making a big comeback in Europe?

	12-11-2003 22:57									#12
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So?

All ideologies are "false" to a degree, if you are serious enough about it to analyze them comprehensively.

	13-11-2003 18:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Adam Smith lived in the 18th century. Karl Marx in the 19th. This had to be one of the easiest posts to rip apart in awhile.

yah, perhaps I should have said neoclassical economics specificaly, and the attempt to make economics into a hard science with lots of maths to 'prove' capitalist superiority and enshrine the capitalist ethos, as represented by those American propaganda films put out in the 50s. Who says free-market economics is a good thing, who says it is the best system for bringing personal empowerment to the most people, the highest quality services and industries... capitalist idealists, that's who, and they say that kind of stuff as a counter to the idea of communism. Of course now free-market economics and globalisation is seen as the wave of the future... really it's just the economics of empire and hegemony... the ideology of the invisible masters of the 3rd world.

	13-11-2003 18:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Japher You really are a problem child, eh Hoopla, your nuts!! How do I know?

Yeah sure you disagree, but they really were thinking that way with the best intentions... fairness... equality... they just forgot that the world isn't a scientific or sensible place. And too much equality is oppressive, you end up just levelling everyone.

	13-11-2003 19:15									#15
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Why can't Americans even discuss the concept of Communism without foaming at the mouth. Look at Japher's or Sprayber's response. You just respond with an insult or a putdown. Grow up!

	13-11-2003 19:25									#16
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it's the wave of nationalism, their government has decided to mobalise them with 'patriotism'. Give it a decade or so, and they'll produce a back-lash subcutlure of 'free love' and psychadelic rock again, like before

	13-11-2003 19:45									#17
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Actually, I'd argue that their responses are due in large part to the many, many, many "Capitalism vs. Communism" threads that have existed here at Apolyton OT. It's been done so much, sometimes one doesn't have the energy to respond fully, and just laughing is easier. Couple that with PC's other posts on the forum, and I can see why it happened.

But, PC, if you prefer to believe we're all brainwashed automotons chanting "God Bless America" go right ahead.

-Arrian

	13-11-2003 19:47									#18
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Well if that is the case, surely they would just avoid this thread like the plague?

	13-11-2003 19:49									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Why can't Americans even discuss the concept of Communism without foaming at the mouth.

Religion threads inspire that kind of reaction in some people.

	13-11-2003 19:52									#20
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Yep, capitalism sucks.

But it sucks less than any previous system.


And how can anybody take communism seriously.
Any belief system that promises that the "state will wither away" is obviously playing on the ignorance of it's followers.

Labor unions, became the prefered choice over communism. They actually helped the common worker. Communism never has.

	13-11-2003 21:06									#21
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Didn't we try killing this thread with our apathy a couple of days ago? Why the resurrection?

	13-11-2003 21:20									#22
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Didn't the system try killing trade unions?

Yes they do DinoDoc, look at people like CivNation. They need combatting, thanks to people like me they are kept in check

	13-11-2003 23:35									#23
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I'm glad you had a smilie in that post. For a second I wasn't sure if you got the point of that post.

	13-11-2003 23:43									#24
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I know perfectly well what you are saying thanks, sometimes it is usually the problem of people understanding my posts and keeping track of my wit, obscure as it can be at times...

	13-11-2003 23:58									#25
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quote: Why can't Americans even discuss the concept of Communism without foaming at the mouth. Look at Japher's or Sprayber's response. You just respond with an insult or a putdown. Grow up!

You wouldn't understand, it's an American thing

Tell me why I should take the concept of communism seriously? It's all a dream, a nice dream, but a dream of some power hungry hippie.. a contradiction of terms, equal yet not equal. Tell me how that is even scientific? It even violates social sciences.

Marxism is a good start. However, the fact it turned into communism reminds makes of all the guys who failed trying to invent the parachute.

	14-11-2003 00:06									#26
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quote: Why can't Americans even discuss the concept of Communism without foaming at the mouth.

Broad, exaggerated, generalization.

-Arrian

	14-11-2003 00:10									#27
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Boris, Che, Kid... who else is in the Apolyton Communist Party?

Bashing Capitalism on the onset in an attempt to make communism look better will always get a strong rise out of me, your fical conservative who loves capitalism.

If you would of just came out and say "hey, here's away communism could work" I might listen.

	14-11-2003 00:10									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Japher You wouldn't understand, it's an American thing Tell me why I should take the concept of communism seriously? It's all a dream, a nice dream, but a dream of some power hungry hippie.. a contradiction of terms, equal yet not equal. Tell me how that is even scientific? It even violates social sciences. Marxism is a good start. However, the fact it turned into communism reminds makes of all the guys who failed trying to invent the parachute.

Argue the issue, fair enough. But this isn't what you did. It just turns to you lot commenting about smoking crack. And your scientific/social science argument smells like bull to me. How does it violate social sciences and science on a whole?

	14-11-2003 00:12									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison How does it violate social sciences and science on a whole?

Theories that fail repeated trials usually get discarded.

	14-11-2003 00:13									#30
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Japher, I have mentioned nothing about capitalism, all I have mentioned so far is your first interjection into this thread, your little outburst, your little hissyfit. To an outsider it demonstrates what a deep impact the likes of Reagan and McCarthy have left on your national psyche.