21-11-2003 06:26									#301
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Great work compiling all of these, alexman. Here are three bugs not listed so far, with links. (As an aside, all of the "killer bugs" listed should probably have links to discussions of said bug, so the details are clear for any developers interested.)

SCENARIO-SPECIFIC
In the Rise of Rome Conquest, ivory is displayed with the silks icon. See here for the details and a fix.

OTHER BUGS (introduced in C3C)
Railroad sometimes can not be laid to recently captured cities; the game treats the city as having only a road, even if there is a railroad run to it. See here for details and a saved game. Apparently this one has been around for a while, in beta too; it certainly wasn't a problem in PTW.

Lastly, a change in the display of battles, apparently to help speed up multiplayer games, makes it very difficult to see the outcome of battles in cities, if you don't have battles animated. See here for details and a possible fix (adding a new option to display combat unit health which wouldn't be available in multiplayer games.)

	21-11-2003 08:37									#302
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber 2. After the TOA (Temple of Artimis) is made obsolete, all of the temples placed by the wonder disappear and have to be built.

This was a design decision, and quite a good one, I think. If you're afraid that Artemis becomes obsolete too quickly (say, if you're playing Deity or Sid), a partial solution would be to mod it to become obsolete at Printing Press instead of Theology.

quote: 3. The SOZ (Statue of Zeus) and KT (Knights Templar) should be small wonders. SOZ should require Horses and Ivory. KT should require a Feudal government. Frequency should be chaged to 3 (optional). These are too powerful to be GW's.

I really hate that Zeus requires Ivory to build. It's a powerful Wonder that is only available to those civs (usually only one, with the new resource distributions) lucky enough to start next to Ivory. Why make the game more about luck that it currently is? Plus, I see no logic behind putting a resource requirement on this one Wonder and no others (save Manhattan's, which is okay because resources are more accessible in the late-game), other than the realism argument, which makes you wonder why they do not apply it to other Wonders as well (Gold for the Pyramids?!). I've been waiting to say that publicly since the beta.

However, I dislike the idea of making these Small Wonders. It would change the game too much if each civ could build a "soldier-replicating machine". I'm also doubtful that these Wonders are that much more powerful that any other (surely not the Pyramids, Leo's or the new Great Wall, to name a few).


Dominae

	21-11-2003 09:28									#303
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I agree with Dom on the Temple of Zeus. It is totally unfair that only a civ with ivory gets to build it.

	21-11-2003 09:30									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Traelin I vehemently disagree with you on this one. Lethal bombard is very, very realistic and necessary IMHO. Look at all the major conflicts the U.S. has been involved in the last 15 years. We have invested tons of R&D into air superiority, and for good reason. In literally a matter of days we are able to rip to shreds a well-fortified army. Lethal air bombard must stay in. EDIT: Maybe a good compromise would be to disallow lethal air bombardment with standard bombers, but allow lethal bombardment for F-15s, Jet Fighters, and Stealth Fighters/Bombers.

That's EXACTLY what I had said. No lethal for bombers, lethal for all others (F-15, Stealths, Jets).

	21-11-2003 09:47									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I agree with Dom on the Temple of Zeus. It is totally unfair that only a civ with ivory gets to build it.

If anything it should require horses, which are much more randomly dispersed. How can you have a cavalry unit without horses? But I agree that this should be changed. Now I have to look for a good start AND ivory within a few city sites. Yes i can be that anal.

	21-11-2003 15:32									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen That's EXACTLY what I had said. No lethal for bombers, lethal for all others (F-15, Stealths, Jets).

If by this you mean lethal land bombard, I agree. Ship killing should be allowed, IMHO.

	21-11-2003 21:37									#307
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Maybe finger slimming exercises are the answer.

LOL

	21-11-2003 21:41									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen That's EXACTLY what I had said. No lethal for bombers, lethal for all others (F-15, Stealths, Jets).

Oops, sorry Zen. Guess I didn't read your post closely enough.

	21-11-2003 22:36									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I really hate that Zeus requires Ivory to build. It's a powerful Wonder that is only available to those civs (usually only one, with the new resource distributions) lucky enough to start next to Ivory. Why make the game more about luck that it currently is? ... I've been waiting to say that publicly since the beta.

(as there is no 'Exactly my sentiment' smiley)

I can't even imagine what Breakaway was thinking. I mean, luxury ressources aren't spread over the map, they are CLUMPED. Ivory may not even be on my CONTINENT. I want to play Civ, not a game of dice.

	21-11-2003 22:42									#310
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I agree too, but should I add this to the first post, or does it not belong in a patch?

If I were Breakaway, I would have made ivory a strategic resource with a low appearance ratio. I would have then turned one of their new bonus resources (tobaco etc) into a luxury resource. Easy to do in the editor, and the effect is a more even ivory distribution.

	21-11-2003 22:45									#311
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quote: Originally posted by alexman If I were Breakaway, I would have made ivory a strategic resource with a low appearance ratio. I would have then turned one of their new bonus resources (tobaco etc) into a luxury resource. Easy to do in the editor, and the effect is a more even ivory distribution.

But wouldn't that make the AI trade needlessly for Ivory after ToZ is built?

	21-11-2003 22:47									#312
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That's true, I didn't think about that.
I'm sure they could have found another way around it.
Perhaps another use for Ivory...

	21-11-2003 22:49									#313
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I like ivory as a luxury ressource. I just don't like any ressource as a prereq for a Great Wonder. (And yes, Manhattan Project should be a small wonder.) Zeus requiring ivory is simply a bad design decision, and the sooner this is fixed, the better.

EDIT: In other words, please add this to the first post, alexman.

	21-11-2003 23:21									#314
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I agree that resources should not be required for a wonder. The Manhattan is not too bad as it is so late in the game, but Zeus is an ancient wonder.

	21-11-2003 23:48									#315
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I agree too, but should I add this to the first post, or does it not belong in a patch?

The designers seemed to prefer that the Statue of Zeus require Ivory. Perhaps if there's enough of a public outcry this will be changed, but in their eyes it's certainly not a high priority item that requires "fixing".


Dominae

	22-11-2003 00:21									#316
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At first, I didn't like the Ivory requirement, but now I'm leaning towards liking it just because it adds some flavor and variety to the game. I actually wouldn't mind if a few other wonders required resources (but no, I wouldn't want all or even most to)

	22-11-2003 00:24									#317
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The designers seemed to prefer that the Statue of Zeus require Ivory. Perhaps if there's enough of a public outcry this will be changed, but in their eyes it's certainly not a high priority item that requires "fixing". Dominae

After playing a good deal of emperor/monarch games I'm actually liking the somewhat random nature of who can and cannot build the SoZ. It may not create for a perfectly level playing field, but I always thought that part of the fun of Civ3 and C3C was that you were always having to deal with being screwed out of some important resource or having a less-than-ideal starting position. Granted, luxuries are a lot harder to get ahold of than strategic resources but I still don't see why it's a big problem only being able to build this every 5th game or so. Personally, I really enjoy this extra random flare to the game.

That being said, I have been on the receiving end of a 20+ ancient cavalry horde combined with other troops from the AI. That didn't turn out real well for me, but it's something that I can in mind now when "negotiating" with the AI. The ToZ definitely gives a civ a good amount of leverage.

On a completely different note... I'm not that familiar with the editor so I was hoping somebody could quickly answer this question even though it is a bit off-topic. I was thinking that it would be more interesting if scientific leaders appeared more often, but I realize how this could be fairly unbalancing to the game unless the were nerfed somewhat. Anyways, the idea that I had was to make it so that a SGL could only be used to rush wonders that had a civilizations traits attached to it. It seems to me that this would make each civilization more distinct than they already are while being able to boos the scientific trait by helping them to get more SGL and use them to rush science related wonders. Would this even be possible to do in the editor? I would love to see this in the main game but I have a feeling that if its too big of a change for Firaxis/Breakaway to even think about implementing. Pity that, but I can hold out hope! Maybe in an AU mod if possible!

-donZappo

EDIT: Outscooped by RobC! Also, I forgot to add that while I like the way that the SoZ works now, I definitely support the idea of having the AI value it *much* higher than other luxuries because it is such a powerful advantage during the ancient age.

	22-11-2003 01:22									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie But wouldn't that make the AI trade needlessly for Ivory after ToZ is built?

No. Not if the trade value is calculated like it was in PTW. As with techs, the AI does seem to know when wonders have been built.

I've heard the complaint that there are too many ancient age wonders because the AI wastes cities on building multiple wonders too often. The ivory rquirement for the Statue gets round this as any civ building it has a good chance of being successful.

	22-11-2003 02:09									#319
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quote: Originally posted by donZappo I'm actually liking the somewhat random nature of who can and cannot build the SoZ. ... Granted, luxuries are a lot harder to get ahold of than strategic resources but I still don't see why it's a big problem only being able to build this every 5th game or so.

Wouldn't the Statue of Zeus screw up multiplayer games?

	22-11-2003 02:36									#320
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Only having played one game with the new C3C, I have one ongoing bug from all versions and one small request.

The bug is the AI's lack of harbours. It seems to be one of the last things on the build lists no matter what you do to the AI through the editor. Instread of having a trade network by the time you are in the Middle Ages, you don't get all of the AI's trading by sea until the Industrial, if at all.

The request is for a feature that would fix that alexman pointed out with the workers. A stacking limit. It is an annoying bug that gives AI troops an overwhelming blitzkrieg capacity with ancient age cavalry.

Now it may be my prejudice for the realism of the old board-base wargames, but it would add a much needed dose of realism to the combat system abstactions. It would make the strategic control of terrain just a little more important now that we can have totally impassible terrain. I can live with the idea of not having a ZoC for units until the modern age, but seeing a horde of 30+ ancient units attacking through the same square in one turn never ceases to annoy and amaze me. It's just as bad for me being able to do the same in return.

Logistics are the biggest concern and have decided more battle outcomes than technology. And most of the people in any army are involved in logistics and in modern times vastly out number those in the front lines. If you really want to be ambitious, give us Supply Lines to deal with too. Make it to units have to trace a clear line back to a friendly city or food square, or they loose 1 hp a turn until they get to 1 hp.

As for a stacking limit, 10 units per square may be a good place to start. It would also put a limit on how many units can garrison a city.

BTW, alexman, excellent analysis work. Soren should hire you to help produce CivIV. Then we'd really be pulling out our hair trying to figure out what the AI is up to when there would be almost no flaws in their strategies and no bugs to exploit...

D.

	22-11-2003 02:50									#321
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quote: Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen The bug is the AI's lack of harbours. It seems to be one of the last things on the build lists no matter what you do to the AI through the editor.

The AI does build harbors, but only in response to food shortage. I agree that it should place more emphasis on its first harbor for trade.

quote: A stacking limit. It is an annoying bug that gives AI troops an overwhelming blitzkrieg capacity with ancient age cavalry.

I agree that a stacking limit would give more of a wargame feel to civ, but I wouldn't call the lack of it a bug. They designed it that way, and they probably won't change it, especially not in a patch.

quote: BTW, alexman, excellent analysis work.

Thanks, but I'm not doing any analysis. I just gather suggestions, and update the first post if they are easy fixes to commonly accepted problems.

	22-11-2003 02:51									#322
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep Wouldn't the Statue of Zeus screw up multiplayer games?

Multiplayer games on random maps aren't that balanced anyway. I'd take a cow and another luxury over ivory if it were next to the starting position.

On a pre-made map, it's easy to balance the ivory or have none at all.

	22-11-2003 03:07									#323
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me No. Not if the trade value is calculated like it was in PTW. As with techs, the AI does seem to know when wonders have been built.

Unfortunately, in C3C, it appears (from other posters) that the AI will pay quite handsomely for Music Theory or Free Artistry, even after the respective wonders have been completed. Don't know how that got mangled in the move to C3C, but there it is.

Catt

	22-11-2003 03:11									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me I'd take a cow and another luxury over ivory if it were next to the starting position.

I would too, but cows and ivory are independent. What if one guy has cows and ivory?

My point is that the ToZ, as it is now, increases the potential for extreme cases of unbalanced maps. Now whether you like unbalanced maps or not, that's another story. In SP they are not a big deal (I like them anyway). In MP they might be a bigger issue, depending on who gets the short end of the stick.

	22-11-2003 04:16									#325
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I upgraded a vet chariot to a vet horsemen earlier........is it supposed to retain vet status?

	22-11-2003 04:19									#326
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Yes!
It's only elites who become demoted.
Being away for a while takes its toll on memeory, eh?

	22-11-2003 04:27									#327
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Yes! It's only elites who become demoted. Being away for a while takes its toll on memeory, eh?

Yeah, I remember vets getting demoted too...........must be getting old.

	22-11-2003 04:49									#328
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quote: Originally posted by alexman The AI does build harbors, but only in response to food shortage. I agree that it should place more emphasis on its first harbor for trade.

If one was to list all the things that have been mentioned as things the AI needs to do, it would be very long.
My point is that the AI has some of the problems we have, it can not do all the things it would need to do at the same time.
Everything can't be a priority. Now you get down to giving some serious thought as to what needs to be be done next and that is often not easy for even the human, let alone the AI.

	22-11-2003 08:03									#329
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep I can't even imagine what Breakaway was thinking.

I can. The main distinguishing feature of this wonder in real life was that it was made of ivoryand gold.

	22-11-2003 08:28									#330
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The problem here is that players tend to now want ivory in addition to a good starting location.

I have no trouble with picky players who want a nice starting location for good rexing, but requiring ivory so they can have a good chance of grabbing the zeus wonder is unbalancing.

Personally, I look try out 2 or 3 starts per game, and look for a relatively good start. In fact, I've found myself enjoying hopeless starts lately, especially those island starts in pangea games--playing from behind when the AI isn't on steroids like it is in Diety is actually a lot more fun. I'm not anal about a perfect start and ivory is something I'm more than willing to give to the AI. The AI NEEDS everything it can to be competitive anyways.

I think the thing that needs fixing, aside from potentially looking in Ancient Cavalry and toning down its stats a little bit, is the human player. We cheat so much, it makes the AI from Civ2 look honest by comparison.