17-11-2003 07:23									#1
	Leo's and skipping techs Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have a question on how Leo's upgrades units, particularly if their are techs missing (skipped).

For example, say a civ has Leo's and Horseback Riding, but doesn't have Chivalry or Leadership. Now lets say that civ acquires Tactics (either by theft from an enemy or gift from an ally).

Does Leo's upgrade the Horsemen? And if it upgrades them, what does it upgrade them to? (Knights even though the civ doesn't have Chivalry? Dragoons? or directly to Calvary...similar to the upgrade from Warriors to Muskateers bypassing Phalanx and Pikemen)

Anyone know?

p.s. Another question, I did some testing on the above, and with Leo's and Horsemen, and adding Monotheism, units don't automatically upgrade to Crusaders near as I can tell (or Elephants for that matter). What techs make it so that Horsemen are no longer in the build list? (I am guessing any of Chivalry, Leadership or Tactics)

	17-11-2003 23:24									#2
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A good question - and one I know that SG(2) would have been able to answer.

	18-11-2003 00:30									#3
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Yes, you must have Chiv before horse will upgrade or become obsolete.

	18-11-2003 01:44									#4
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Horse will stay on the list till Chiv, and Chariots will upgrade to Elephants and then to Crusaders. Knights upgrade to Dragoons, then to Calvary. Warriors and Phalanx will stay till Feud or Gunpowder. Musketmen replace Warriors, Phalanx, Archers, Legions, and Pikemen. Caravels replace Triremes, but get replaced by Galleons rather than Frigates. Transports replace Galleons, and Destroyers replace Frigates and Ironclads.

There was a thread on this way back; I'll see if I can find it again.

EDIT: Here it is- it was SG(2), back in 2000:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...33828#post33828

Last edited by Elephant on 18-11-2003 at 02:02

	18-11-2003 06:15									#5
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Hmm, I have read both this thread (thanks for the answers ) and the thread that Elephant linked to, but though I now have the answer to my first question, I am not positive about the first.

If I understand Rah correctly, you are saying that my Horsemen, with Tactics and Leo's will not upgrade until I get Chivalry (and Leadership). Sorry for asking for clarification, but this is a key point, I am about to "acquire" tactics, and want to be able to build Alpine Troops and Calvary if possible, and research Amphibious Warfare, but I need to know if I should be rushing more Horsemen for the upgrade yet or if it will still be possible to produce Horsemen post Tactics (but Pre-Chivalry and Leadership)

	18-11-2003 09:49									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk If I understand Rah correctly, you are saying that my Horsemen, with Tactics and Leo's will not upgrade until I get Chivalry (and Leadership). Sorry for asking for clarification, but this is a key point, I am about to "acquire" tactics, and want to be able to build Alpine Troops and Calvary if possible, and research Amphibious Warfare, but I need to know if I should be rushing more Horsemen for the upgrade yet or if it will still be possible to produce Horsemen post Tactics (but Pre-Chivalry and Leadership)

rah is correct; without Chivalry, no upgrade. If you "acquire" Tactics then you can build cav/alpine--and horsemen. The horse troops will not upgrade until you go back for Chivalry. You can mass produce them for later upgrade. Dont know how many more ways to say this.

If you can get Tactics w/o Chivalry this will keep the 20g slot available for rush-building. That is a good thing.

Monk

	18-11-2003 10:41									#7
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okay, that is what I thought he was saying, just needed to be sure.

Thanks for clarifying all, this could be most beneficial

	18-11-2003 10:58									#8
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Should have asked this sooner.

How are you going to "acquire" Tactics??

If I understand correctly, only the AI can steal a tech for which it does not have the prerequisite. I'd be happy to find I am wrong about this.

Perhaps a woebegone AI has been gifted Tactics thru an alliance??

What's up??

Monk

	18-11-2003 11:32									#9
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LOL, it is a multiplayer game and my ally has the GL and is very close to "acquiring" tactics (or I might just try and steal it from an enemy).........I have Leo's on the other hand, and would like the advantage of having a bunch of Horsemen upgrade to calvary, wasn't sure how soon I needed to plan on this happening.......now that I know Chivalry and Leadership are required, it helps my strategy quite a bit. I don't need to delay acquiring tactics, which will allow me to continue producing horsemen, and also to produce the advances for which Tactics is a prerequisite. All around, a win win situation I think......now to make it work!

Edit: Though I am not sure, I don'tthink a human player requires the prerequisites to "acquire" a tech. Anyone with knowledge greater then my own care to clarify ?

	18-11-2003 14:10									#10
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You are right there Sparrow - prereqs are ONLY needed to research a tech - all other methods of acquisition are not so hindered

Stu

	18-11-2003 14:12									#11
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Just thought of a good example that we have all seen - when talking to a AI early in the game they frequenrly have both Masonry & Construction on offer - and we know which one we choose don't we boys

Stu

	18-11-2003 15:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Just thought of a good example that we have all seen - when talking to a AI early in the game they frequenrly have both Masonry & Construction on offer - and we know which one we choose don't we boys Stu

Masonry for the GW?

Hm... SH, after reading this thread I'd better check i) if it pertains to our 7 player PBEM and ii) what kind of treaty we have...

Carolus

	18-11-2003 18:11									#13
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Sparrowhawk - horsemen can be built until Chivalry is discovered. Since horsemen upgrade to knights, I'm pretty sure your horsemen will not upgrade until you discover Chivalry (at which point they will upgrade to knights, dragoons, and cavalry).

Carolus - it's pretty obvious which game he's talking about. Last time I checked, Sparrowhawk is a member of the opposition.

P.S. to Sparrowhawk - don't count on your ally holding the GL too much longer (unless you're planning on switching sides?)...

Last edited by DaveV on 18-11-2003 at 18:17

	18-11-2003 20:02									#15
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Good thread Nice to be reminded of some of the tricks to Leo. One thing I try to do is rush the Warrior I was building 2 turns before I finish Leo - 20 free shields if I have Gunpowder! If done right, you can save a lot of shields this way... constructing your army right before Leo is built. It's even better if you can get the Horse-Cavalry upgrade almost immediately, like SH

Free shields are available in the Warrior upgrade, the Phalanx/Pikemen upgrade (to Muskets), the Cannon-Artillery ugrade, Horsemen-Knights-Dragoons-Cavalry, Cruiser-AEGIS, etc... (you lose shields if you have Legions; consequently I don't think I've ever built one)

BTW, Elephant, I'm 99.9% sure that Frigates don't upgrade into anything...

	18-11-2003 20:09									#16
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Spies!! Forgot about Spies. Only considered Dips.

And so the memory fades from disuse.

??NOT

Monk

	18-11-2003 20:30									#17
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Can someone refresh my memory regarding the different levels of Civ 2 and Leo's.
As far as I can remember, on Deity level then you will only get upgrades once you discover a tech, no matter which tech and no matter which upgrade, whereas on other levels then the upgrades take place automatically.
So if you've bribed an enemy city with three archers on Chieftain then they will become riflemen straightaway, but if you bribe it on Deity they will become riflemen (for example) when you discover your next tech.
A matter ofr curiosity only, as we all play Deity, but which levels does Leo's work freely on, and which do you have to wait with?

	18-11-2003 20:47									#18
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Can someone refresh my memory regarding the different levels of Civ 2 and Leo's. ---snip--- A matter ofr curiosity only, as we all play Deity, but which levels does Leo's work freely on, and which do you have to wait with?

DoY,

Can't help with this; having trouble remembering last month much less 5 years ago.

But, if your predicate is correct, then here is another example of why folk would be well advised to move quickly thru the lower levels and concentrate on learning the game at Deity level. Best not to pick up bad habits.

Monk

	18-11-2003 20:53									#19
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STYOM: I have not built Leo's in a dog's age, so I was pulling from memory. I remember the Magnetism split (Triremes and Caravels, both units with an Attack strength greater than 0, switch to the Galleon/Transport path), but I thought Frigates made a new path that went to Ironclads and Destroyers. I dont have the time to test that out right now, but I'll submit to the wisdom of SG(2).

DoY: My experience with Leo's was always that you got one "level" upgrade each time you discovered or "acquired" a new tech. I dont remember playing Chieftan level more than a couple of games, though, so I am probably unaware of different effects at that level. Seems like there were more than one difference in the way things worked then.

	19-11-2003 01:07									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant Seems like there were more than one difference in the way things worked then.

Planning a 'Silly Rules' succession game at chieftain level?

	19-11-2003 02:44									#21
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Yes, less than deity level, I wouldn't know, having played none in SP and just a couple in MP.

Yes and frigate go to ironclads etc. and galleons upgrade to transports. But caravels seemed to upgrade to galleons, which always irritated me.

	22-11-2003 10:09									#22
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swap the unit slots

	23-11-2003 05:16									#23
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I play to many MP games, so it's best not to mess with those things and be accused of cheating if I forget to mention it has been changed.

	23-11-2003 17:01									#24
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Frigates go to IronClads - not on this world!!

	25-11-2003 02:49									#25
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The fold-out tech chart that comes with the game tells you which tech makes a unit obsolete. The same information is somewhere in rules.txt, I think. The unit doesn't upgrade until you have that tech, no matter what other more advanced techs you have. Not only can you continue to build your horsies if you have tactics but not chivalry, you'll still be able to build knights until you get leadership; only then will they become cavalry.

I'd swear that frigates become obsolete and upgrade to ironclads with steam power.

	25-11-2003 04:46									#26
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Perhaps the memory problem stems from Magnetism (Frigates) and Steam Engine (Ironclads) being located on the chart next to each other.

Both boats are obseleted by Electricity. Neither upgrades to the other.

Monk

	25-11-2003 05:19									#27
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Thanks for all the help guys! This answers every question I had on this topic......and a couple that I hadn't thought of

(Though if I had known in advance that the "unholy trinity" of DaveV (leader of the French), Carolus Rex (leader of the Romans) and La Fayette (leader of the Babylonians) would all be replying, I never would have asked the question in the first place)....though it is just a coincedence that these same set of circumstances occur in our PBEM game , of course I was not considering it for that game, but rather another one that I am in with the same exact set of techs/wonders (who would have thought it possible )

* Sparrowhawk ...leader of the Mongolian Hordes....of Horsemen

	25-11-2003 10:29									#28
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quote: Originally posted by debeest I'd swear that frigates become obsolete and upgrade to ironclads with steam power.

Nope. I almost always build Leo's in SP games and often build Frigates, but they never upgrade.

Frigates are the only boat that can carry units and has a half-decent attack strength. Pity they don't upgrade to assault ships or anything.

	25-11-2003 16:54									#29
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To make it short, 2 lines:
Trireme (Map Making) == Caravel (Navigation) == Galleon (Magnetism) == Transport (Industrialization)

Ironclad (Steam Engine) == Destroyer (Electricity)

That is all for the Navy, except perhaps a rather theoretical possibility (that I don't remember having checked):

Cruiser (Steel) == AEGIS (Rocketry)

(but who is willing to discover Rocketry before Automobile ? )

	25-11-2003 18:20									#30
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Isn't Mass Production on the path to Rocketry anyway? It wouldn't work.