20-11-2003 03:31									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian As you may have noticed, America is quite a bit to right of Europe.

This has not always been true. Don't make the classic conservative mistake of looking at what exists today and assuming it was true for the past. During the 1930s, the US was to the left of much of Europe. We moved right, they moved left.

Q Cubed, the difference between being a commie and white male is that being a commie confers no privledges. In order to keep my "whiteness" I don't spout off about my politics too loudly.

	20-11-2003 03:33									#62
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark why no socialist force According to many historians (notably Robert Hofstader (sp?) teh conditions of american life at the time of industrialiazation (high wages, no aristocracy or established church, manhood suffrage BEFORE industrialization) meant a less politicizes labor movement than in Europe - many (NOT ALL) american unions were enamoured of "business unionism" ie focus on wages and benefits to exclusion of politics. When a modern center left arose, under FDR, it was led by liberal intellectuals with labor as a subsidiary component, not with labor as the dominant and leading force as in Europe. Also the conditions that led to widespread nationalization in Europe after WW2 did not occur here.

But industrialization of the U.S took off just before the Civil war, and there was a 'aristocracy' of sorts in the South. Wages were low or non-existent in the South and the Church it seems was established.

Did the Civil War in some ways work against socialization?

Wasn't there a great deal of repression and infiltration of the later labour unions too?

	20-11-2003 03:36									#63
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quote: This has not always been true. Don't make the classic conservative mistake of looking at what exists today and assuming it was true for the past. During the 1930s, the US was to the left of much of Europe. We moved right, they moved left.

I understand. But I was addressing his question (re: socialist reformist whatever political force) as covering the entire period from 1930s - present. During most of that period, America has been right of Europe, wouldn't you say?

-Arrian

	20-11-2003 03:41									#64
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quote: Q Cubed, the difference between being a commie and white male is that being a commie confers no privledges. In order to keep my "whiteness" I don't spout off about my politics too loudly.

hush, you pinko.

i'm not saying they're the same. i'm saying that they're both quite unfashionable to be right now.

	20-11-2003 03:52									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc But industrialization of the U.S took off just before the Civil war, and there was a 'aristocracy' of sorts in the South. Wages were low or non-existent in the South and the Church it seems was established.

Even into the 20th Century, a majority of American lived in rural areas.

quote: Did the Civil War in some ways work against socialization?

Quite the opposite. Many later socialist leaders were Civil War vets, from both sides.

quote: Wasn't there a great deal of repression and infiltration of the later labour unions too?

Yes, but that's not very important.

LotM mentioned most of the important matieral reasons as to why socialism never became a significant force in the U.S. The other major material reason is the fronteer. The U.S. had a safety valve, in that workers who couldn't take industrial life could become farmers, rather than joining a union to struggle for a better life.

The other aspect was American nativism. Socialism has always been considered an alien ideology here, from the first Germans who brought it over to the cold war when it was considered a force for Moscow. Although the Great Awakening inspired quite a bit of religious socialist experiements around the country (the biggest one being Utah), that never really went mainstream.

Ironically, Leninism is based largely on the ideas of DeLeon, and American Marxist from the late 19th Century. International Workers Day is based on an even that happened in Chicago, and International Womens' Day (a socialist holiday before it mainstreamed) based on an event in NYC (the Triangle Shirt Factory fire). We've had a lot of influecne on world socialism, but the reverse has not been true.

	20-11-2003 03:53									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian During most of that period, America has been right of Europe, wouldn't you say? -Arrian

Most of it, yes.

	20-11-2003 03:54									#67
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The left-right political spectrum doesn't translate very well between the US and Europe. Consider that the extreme left and right in Europe tend towards totalitarianism while the extreme left and right in the US tend toward libertarianism.

But I think it's safe to say that the US has always had many more economic liberals (in the European sense) than Europe. Indeed, before FDR, the liberals had a very large majority. Even today, there is a sizeable liberal minority that is tucked somewhere between moderate independents and Republicans.

	20-11-2003 03:55									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Q Cubed, the difference between being a commie and white male is that being a commie confers no privledges. In order to keep my "whiteness" I don't spout off about my politics too loudly. hush, you pinko. i'm not saying they're the same. i'm saying that they're both quite unfashionable to be right now.

Despite the caims of white men and their ass kissers like Dinesh D'Souza, it has never been unpopular to be a white male. We still get all the chicks.

	20-11-2003 03:56									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The left-right political spectrum doesn't translate very well between the US and Europe. Consider that the extreme left and right in Europe tend towards totalitarianism while the extreme left and right in the US tend toward libertarianism.

An interesting point.

	20-11-2003 04:03									#70
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar So-called freedom to contract has always been tightly constrained (yes, even during the Lockner era). Lockner was the height of freedom to contract unless you were a union - apparently freedom to contract did not extend to freedom of workers to contract together for their mutual benefit. But I digress, even the Lockner decision provided that the states have a power to limit contracts for the public good. So you can't contract for prostitution for instance. Also note that the Constitution says nothing about freedom of contract. The constitution only says that states may not impair the obligation of contracts. Thus the state breaches all contracts, pays compensation out of its bonds, and then defaults as above.

The constitution also says nothing about the right to privacy. Yet this is enforced "substantively" through the 14th Amendment's due process clause.

The decisions confining Lochner did so on the basis that the right to contract was subject to the "police" powers of a state to legislate for the health, security, morals and welfare of the people. The question presented is whether a ban on competition with a state monopoly is a legitimate exercise of police power or a forbidden unreasonable denial of liberty to contract.

There actually might be cases on point. I am thinking about competition with the Post Office, for example. Did Congress ever try to ban competition? Did they succeed?

	20-11-2003 04:05									#71
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The left-right political spectrum doesn't translate very well between the US and Europe. Consider that the extreme left and right in Europe tend towards totalitarianism while the extreme left and right in the US tend toward libertarianism.

So that would mean that the political centre in the U.S. is totalitarian?

	20-11-2003 04:08									#72
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Also, Templar, you could not prevent non communist parties from forming, expressing their opinion, voting, and gaining power. Communism would prevail only so long as communist held the majority. But, as history has shown, as soon as communist allow democracy, they are voted out.

	20-11-2003 04:15									#73
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quote: So that would mean that the political centre in the U.S. is totalitarian?

[

Only if the political center in Europe is libertarian .

	20-11-2003 04:15									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The constitution also says nothing about the right to privacy.

Not explicitly, but it is easily inffered from the rights in the Bill of Rights, such as th right not to incriminate oneself, the right to be free of arbitrary searches and seizures, the fact they cannot question a spouse, the fact you have a right to counsel, and so on. It doesn't take much intelligence to realize that the Framers clearly intended for the government not to intrude upon our personal affairs except with due process of law.

	20-11-2003 04:37									#75
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quote: Originally posted by ICBM The Supreme Court decided in 1957 in the case Yates v. U.S. that communism is legal. Here's the link I found: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scrip...l=354&invol=298

That's not what the decision said. First there was a statute of limitations problem with one count. Second they held that advocating an overthrow of the US government in the "indefinite" future as opposed to right now was protected free speech.

The court made no comment at all about the legality of communism if it were to be actually implemented, which is implied in the title question to this thread.

	20-11-2003 05:14									#76
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If it were to be implemented is another thing.

I was curious how did they justify firing someone from work just because he was a communist. And why the person didn't go to court with it and prove it is within his rights to be a communist, which I think it was.

That I still don't understand. I can see the reasons why socialism was never a big force now, thanks for explaining that.

	20-11-2003 05:33									#77
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion If it were to be implemented is another thing. I was curious how did they justify firing someone from work just because he was a communist. And why the person didn't go to court with it and prove it is within his rights to be a communist, which I think it was. That I still don't understand. I can see the reasons why socialism was never a big force now, thanks for explaining that.

Being a communist is not a protected civil right. Free speech is, but there the protection extends only to suppression by the government. So, a business can fire people for openly advocating things which the owner opposes, including communism.

BTW, I have always wondered how communists, hard leftists and hard rightists could gain employment in mainstream America. It appears that Che has answered this question. They keep quite while at work.

	20-11-2003 05:39									#78
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DanS said more than 10 000 jobs were lost in civil administration. How do you explain that?

P.S. Please don't see this as trolling, I am genuinely interested foreigner. I plan to pick up a history book about USA soon, but I doubt this is covered.

	21-11-2003 03:32									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Being a communist is not a protected civil right. Free speech is, but there the protection extends only to suppression by the government.

Not necessarily. SCOTUS held in the late 80s that a white supremicist could sue for wrongful termination when his boss (a Black man) found out about his beliefs. But commies usually don't don't resort to the courts, they try and organize instead.

	21-11-2003 04:00									#80
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quote: Not necessarily. SCOTUS held in the late 80s that a white supremicist could sue for wrongful termination when his boss (a Black man) found out about his beliefs.

That decision was probably under regulations by the EEOC or such and not really under the 1st Amendment.

	21-11-2003 04:01									#81
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I think you may be correct.

	21-11-2003 04:14									#82
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Has there ever been a communist in the Supreme Court? I guess not, since they are all appointed by either Democrats or Republicans. Well, at least they can agree on something.

	21-11-2003 04:16									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Has there ever been a communist in the Supreme Court?

Not as a justice, but there have been a few there having cases heard.

	21-11-2003 04:20									#84
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quote: Has there ever been a communist in the Supreme Court?

Does Brennan count?

Just kidding... I love the justice from New Jersey .

	21-11-2003 05:37									#85
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Yates v. U.S. Supreme Court Justices (name, appointed by, years of service)

In which it is apparently illegal to be a communist at work, but you can still be at home. (according to Ned)


Black, Hugo Lafayette - Roosevelt, F. - Democrat - 1937-1971
Douglas, William Orville - Roosevelt, F. - Democrat 1939-1975
Reed, Stanley Forman - Roosevelt, F. - Democrat - 1938-1957
Burton, Harold Hitz - Truman - Democrat - 1945-1958
Clark, Thomas Campbell - Truman - Democrat - 1949-1967
Harlan, John Marshall - Eisenhower - Republican - 1955-1971
Brennan, William Joseph, Jr. - Eisenhower - Republican - 1956-1990
Whittaker, Charles Evans Eisenhower - Republican - 1957-1962

Democrat New Deal superiority is clearly seen.

Does that have anything to do with this:

Joint Resolution of the Georgia General Assembly Mar. 13, 1957; In which they accuse the supreme court of Godless Communism and demand their impeachment?

http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/1957resn-9.htm

I would still say that the fact that Communism had been suppressed by supreme court has been beacuse of resentment felt towards them by the South. Hence it falls back to the Civil war.

	21-11-2003 10:42									#86
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Tripledoc, I didn't say that being a Communist was "illegal." I said that being a Communist did not place one in a protected class vis-à-vis the civil rights laws.

When I first got out of college I went to work for a defense contractor. We all had to have secret or top-secret clearances. I was working on Intercontinental ballistic missiles. In our department there were two programmers working on the missile's flight program. These guys were antiwar types openly advocating unilateral disarmament. I found is very strange. Anyone is seeing Schindler's List knows people can sabotage things so that they do not work. I thought I found a bizarre that management would continue to employe people that could have been programming these missiles to fly the Washington rather than to Moscow.

But nothing happened to these people. I only hope that security today is not so lax.

	21-11-2003 10:45									#87
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quote: Democrat New Deal superiority is clearly seen.

Add to that fact that Brennan was very liberal as well. Then again, SC appointment wasn't as political back then.

	21-11-2003 20:33									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ned These guys were antiwar types openly advocating unilateral disarmament.

And you are prowar and antidisarmament?

	21-11-2003 20:34									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Has there ever been a communist in the Supreme Court? I guess not, since they are all appointed by either Democrats or Republicans. Well, at least they can agree on something.

Yes they do agree. That's why I never vote for either one.

	21-11-2003 20:56									#90
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And THAT is something (at least so far) that Kid and I agree on.

Though I may break down and vote Dem this year. Not sure yet. Won't vote for Bush, that's for sure. But the whole "vote third party to weaken the big 'uns" thing doesn't seem to be working.

-Arrian