22-05-2000 19:01									#1
	Host Advantage - Free Techs - A Poll Enter the AD-FREE zone

As we all know, the Host in an MP games often gets Free Techs at the beginning of the game, and no one else does.

When our normal group plays, we just keep restarting the game until the host doesn't get any. Sometimes, the Host gets so many techs, the host can be in Monarchy by 3800BC.

When playing with some people who don't normally play in our group, they didn't seem to understand the concept that we would keep restarting until we got a "clean" start.

What do other people do in this situation?
Do they just play, giving the host a big advantage? Does the host even bother telling people he got sciences? Or do you do what we do, restart until it is clean?

Just wondering

	22-05-2000 19:50									#2
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Restart until clean. There has been speculation that there is a host advantage anyway--when he doesn't get techs, he likely has a good starting position. But it is better to eliminate an unfairness you know to be real than to allow it because of a conjectural unfairness in another area.

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Curumbor Elendil
jason.sorens@yale.edu
ICQ 56126989

	22-05-2000 20:13									#3
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You raise a valid point that has indeed been discussed before. Let's see, if the host gets a bad starting position, the host gets free techs, and many of us start again. If the host gets a good starting position, no techs, and then we begin. Now, I sometimes question whether the AI understands what a good starting position is when it handicaps by giving free techs

But you are right... the evil we know, vs a guess. Starting with free techs is by far worse...

	22-05-2000 23:38									#4
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in the hands of a good player even 1 extra tech can be decisive.This game tends to snowball for 1 or 2 civs so the game can become very lopsided quickly.

After about 100 restarts one time,Bird and I let Rah have a "handicap" of Bronze Working.That was a bad plan.Monarchy by 3300bc and The Gardens at 2800bc(I think) and the game was looking bad for us.Another wonder followed at 2000BC(just when I finally got Monarchy).The snowball was rolling early for Rah in that game.Just 1 tech to start and I'm sure if we continued Rah would have had first shot at whatever he wanted.

This would have been a perfect situation for Bird and I to "team" up but it was a no co-operation game so we were %^&^ed.

must restart or I doubt the game will ever be continued.

	23-05-2000 00:14									#5
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Yeah... I played a duel with Empress once. I was the host and had three techs. I told her I would restart, and she said no, go ahead.
(maybe she had a good starting position )

I had monarchy by 3700 and I was just cruising. It didn't seem fair...

Since the sciences you start with don't count against your beaker number for future sciences, it is a handicap that just keeps giving.

	23-05-2000 01:20									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Doesnt increase the number of beakers for the next tech?? Amazing.

	23-05-2000 01:36									#7
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One would hope that any host knows the importance of free host techs and would tell the other players when they were received. I think that is the only fair thing to do. If you don't know the host, make it clear before the game starts what is expected of him or her if free techs are given and just trust that they do the honest thing and tell the other players when it happens.

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Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance

	23-05-2000 03:54									#8
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Sometimes its hard to get down to zero techs.
I have proposed everal times to the host to cut down research for 5 turns. That will even things out a litle bit. In a for fun game its acceptable.

	23-05-2000 04:05									#9
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That sounds like a great solution Carnide. It avoids the dreaded mp restart.

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'The absent are always wrong.'

Free the D**d Threads!!

	23-05-2000 04:34									#10
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If somebody gets many techs, that wouldn't be enough to even things out. Again, they don't count against future beakers... an awesome advantage that a few turns of reduced science won't make up for.

	23-05-2000 05:01									#11
	Remove this text

I used to not care about host tech advantage unless it was more than two techs. However, I have had a change of opinion after playing a duel with someone *cough*Ming*cough* who became so very far ahead after two little host techs. In fact, he was so far ahead of me in units and power that I ended up having to resign.

	23-05-2000 05:45									#12
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The alternative - host starting solo, getting a no tech start, saving the game, reloading and getting the other players in - is dodgy too. The client players, joining and picking up (effectively) AI civs, all get tech starts. Or they did the only time I tried the manoeuvre.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	23-05-2000 06:10									#13
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you have to restart until its clean.... give me some free tech, and i guarrantee it will come back to haunt you....

Thats why seven player games suck, someone always gets tons of tech. Four players max is even tricky sometimes.

What we need is someone to make a map for four players, distributed it to everyone, and let those people play it. then someone else makes a map...... but of course its hard enough just to play without putting someone in charge of making map LOL

	23-05-2000 06:20									#14
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A biT off topic (well? don't look at me like that), I have often wondered if players really have a tech when they say they do, sometimes I think they just don't like their starting position

	23-05-2000 09:01									#15
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AH - Lol, I hate to admit it, but playing with a new host that always crosses my mind - especially as I watch 2 or 3 decent starting positions taken away by host techs.

restart till clean is the best - goofy designers...

	23-05-2000 10:31									#16
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I've noticed if host starts with one tech he got worse land than if he have a clean start.
However...i let some of my opponents to start with one free tech (due to frustration because of 5-6 restarting) and somehow always finished with upper hand in those games (duels).
This need more testing,but i vote for clean start anyway.

	23-05-2000 15:58									#17
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Gee some people are lucky whenever I host I get nothing and I need all the help I can get but if I did get an advantage I would always tell my opponent as I want to win fair not by cheating either mine or the computers

	23-05-2000 17:06									#18
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AH, you raise a valid question.
I used to always wonder (like berzerker) that too. (gee aren't we paranoid)

Nothing worse than seeing great starting position after great position be lost because of resets. And usually, the minute you have a terrible one, the host is clean

For that reason, I always save a copy of the game before we reset. Then later, I will go back and check to see if the person actually had a science or not. This way, I will know whether to trust somebody as a host.

The good news is, I have never seen a host lie. The bad news is, I still check whenever I play with somebody that is hosting for the first time... paranoid... nahhhhhh

	23-05-2000 17:23									#19
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Clean starts are a must. No matter how many times it takes. After 3 or 4 restarts, I'll bump up the world size a little.

AH, I usually host when I play, and I must admit, I've been really really tempted to say restart when my tarting position sucked but I can honestly say, I've never done it. Since there are people that save and check later, they will back me up here.

Since I probably host as much as if not more than anyone else here, I've seen it all
on starting position. I've seen the best territory (mulitple trade specials) with huts showing being negated by free techs. I have seen awful terrain without huts and no free techs. (happens more often then the prior for me )

The only advantage to hosting (as mentioned in other threads) is selection of civs. The higher you pick, better crack at river basins. But if you go first, you can't rush build to protect against barbs on surprise. Sometimes I try to pick the civ that I think will move second, but on tiny worlds where the good terrain is a premium, I'll try to go first and take my chances with the barbs.

RAH

	23-05-2000 19:56									#20
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This question is OT, but related to rah's comment about choosing a civ...."The higher you pick, better crack at river basins." Has this been discussed in a forum before? If so, can anyone direct me in the right direction? I've never heard this before, but would like to find out how this is possible.

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Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance

	23-05-2000 20:33									#21
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I don't think that there has been a thread dedicated to this subject. But, the theory goes that the computer lays out the civs at the start of a game in order of "best" positions, starting with the white civ (Romans) and working its way right down the list. People seem to think that this is true. Some non-statistical tests have shown that it works this way much of the time, but as with any rule, there seem to be some exceptions. Plus, you and I may differ with the computer on what a good starting position is
Is this true? Who knows for sure. But it could place a premium on which civ you choose in an MP game, or any game for that matter.

	23-05-2000 22:52									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Generally I think this is true.I have had about a dozen polar starts(thnx for the restarts) and at least 2/3 were with purple.The others were with orange

ideally I'll take green.The "no response time for barbs" of white can be a pain early.A real pain

there always seems to be exceptions though
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Smash (edited May 23, 2000).]</font>

	23-05-2000 23:41									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The only problem with taking green, is when no one else takes white and you end up going first anyways. That happens to me about 50% of the time.

RAH
Sometimes being sneaky isn't good enough.

	24-05-2000 02:23									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm usually not picky when I play, but here's what happened when I tried to debute in game league's ladder.

ICQed a guy in the league, asking him for a game. We agreed on the settings and I asked him about his view on the host's tech advantage (I wanted restarts). He insisted on "playing with what the dice deal", i.e. the host gets to keep the techs.

So I asked him "In that case, who should do the hosting?" and the guy insists on being the host...

As I said I play mostly for fun and I'm not too picky about this stuff, but this was supposed to be my first ladder game FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! I didn't want to lose my first game, had decided not to give a single inch away and only wanted a fair start!

So after a couple of messages back and forth about it I told him that in that case we should "let the dice decide who to do the hosting" (don't ask me how!). He messaged me back, accusing me of wasting a ton of his time and told me "Don't ever ICQ me again, you *****!"...

Oops!

Still haven't played my first ladder game...

Carolus

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited May 23, 2000).]</font>

	24-05-2000 02:48									#25
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Thanks, it's nice to be reminded why I stay away from those types of things.

Play with people you know. Or at least as well as you can over the internet.

RAH
Send the jerk's icq to the ferrets, they like playing with weasels.

	24-05-2000 03:29									#26
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CR... you showed amazing amounts of restraint by not posting the "******" name.

I play for fun, and that's why I stay away from civ league. Most of them are nice people, but the guy you mentioned is bad for Public Relations. Some people just take the game way too seriously

	24-05-2000 10:46									#27
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i have a similar experience and i too will not name names

My first "ladder" game had a different twist.... i joined a game where the host stated if someone got dropped they were out of the game....... well i was first dropped as i had a pirated connection, but the stupid thing other than being duped in the first place for this kind of game is that everyone but the host dropped eventually, what a sham that was!!!!!!!!

No wonder he won, since this experience, i too have shied away from "ladder" play , although i feel this keeps me from being one of the best players, as a lot of great players only play or prefer ladder games

	24-05-2000 11:58									#28
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I think there is no option but to restart if its a serious game.

	24-05-2000 16:56									#29
	Put an end to popups!

On that we can agree AH...
But heck, I think you should restart until no free advances in games for fun too

	25-05-2000 06:05									#30
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Go for a clean start. The beginning is too important, and there is a psychological advantage even if the starting positions balance out the free tech.

Someone who refuses to give up the host/tech advantage should be dropped from your game list.