10-01-2001 07:07									#1
	Colonization of Moon, Mars, etc. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ok, I have a project in mind that bends down more on my profession.

What about a scenario about the colonization of the moon and Mars from Earth in Fantastic Worlds?

I could do it in ToT, I suppose, and have one map of Earth, the other of the moon or Mars.

BUT, would there be a way to do this in FW?

I was thinking perhaps I could make river graphics be ocean graphics, and make ocean graphics be space.

Or, with the scale we have, just make rivers be the oceans in the game.

But any ideas?

For the actual scenario, I'd prefer Mars. It'd be a long scenario, and somewhat tedious. Send a settler unit to Mars, settle a city, BUT, there will be a lot of impass. terrain. So you have to place your cities near each other, and therefore, you need to go slowly, sending terraformers and what not to make Mars more suitable for humans and for what we have on Earth, and gradually, playing as a nation on Earth, make a little place on Mars.

Some options we need to discuss include if this should be strictly a building of a Martian metropolis, or should there be war units?

Civilizations I was thinking of:
United States
Russia
China
Japan
United Kingdom
France
Brazil

OR

United States
Russia
China
Japan
Europe
Brazil
India

I prefer the earlier, personally.

Please, some suggestions on this. I would really like to make such a scenario.

By the way, I have my Sci-Fi conversions to use (units from various sources... I will show it to all of you once this scenario is finished).

I think if I did do this successfully, it would be an innovative thing for Civilization II Fantastic Worlds. And yes, Fantastic Worlds. I now have regular Civilization II with Fantastic Worlds, so no more MGE scenarios. More people will be able to play any upcoming scenarios I make.

	10-01-2001 07:27									#2
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I would replace Brazil by Latin Americans, or simply Latinos, to also include the Iberian countries. Italy would fit into this civ quite well too.

Also, I missed Germany. Perhaps 'Europe' would be a good idea

	10-01-2001 08:47									#3
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A scenario about colonization of Mars would be a great idea. Please make it for FW so I'd be able to play it.

For the Civs, I would suggest using confederations or organizations/groups of countries (like the EU), as that is likely the direction in which the world is heading. Perhaps something like this:

USA
CIS
EU
China + India

with the others being 3 of the following (or 3 combinations of the following as the case may be):

OAU
Arab League
Japan + Korea
Latin America
Israel
Brazil
Nigeria
Australia
Canada


I've wanted to make a scenario about this very topic for a very long time, but I don't have the skill to do so; thats why I'm really looking forward to this .


Have your read Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series?


-GeoDan

	10-01-2001 18:09									#4
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Replace Brazil with a Martian civ. That way you can impassible terrain, triggers, and little green men (what other reason is there for all of those space probes blowing up?).

	11-01-2001 00:42									#5
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Hey Jay Bee and Dan: thanks for the suggestions and what not.

I have read many things on Mars... I don't know about that specific series.

Jim, I can just use barbarian units for that task. Not to worry.


Now, a larger question: allow war or not?

	11-01-2001 00:45									#6
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If you leave away the earth and only stage the scenario on Mars you could present new settlers, etc.. with techs or other certain objectives like finding usable water springs. These advances, once discovered would allow construction of new units, improvments or other things on mars like terraforming.

However, I do have to admit it would be far more fun to settle mars from earth and not just play on mars.
But if you make ocean space than only "coastal" cities could built spacecraft.

Even though I don't like the idea but I think ToT may be better for this...

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	11-01-2001 00:55									#7
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I think I'll try it on Fantastic Worlds.

I think I will also just have a map of mars.

The thing about that is, well, MPS did a scenario on it. It wasn't that great of one, but it was still nice.

So how to compete with that one, and lapse it? Any ideas?

More events, technologies, definitely.

	11-01-2001 01:23									#8
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Make it more, well, "marsian". The mps scenario was so earth fixed in its approach. I don't know how to accuratly express it otherwise. It's future was earth nations continueing what they did on earth.

Have you read the Red, Green and Blue Mars books? If yes perhaps take some ideas out of it.

Or how about different marsian factions fighting for dominance, the United Nations trying to install law and order and being dragged into the mess, powerfull co-operations battling for controll, warlords creating their own little reigns, police states, perhaps a marsian-wide police state, rebels and
oxygen smugglers, alien artifacts, mercenaries, idealists and pioneers. Make it rich in conflicts and possible gains to be made. War should be there to answer your question. Involve terraforming and perhaps accidents and huge catastrophies because of it. Create intrigues and espionge nets. Interests from earth interferring.

Have you seen the film "Total Recal"? Take some of the ideas from there. In any case, don't retain yourself at the standard settings, take a radical turn, sure it has to be realistic but you should push the realm of the possible, give the player the chance to either create a new paradies, a "vietnam war" with no clear sides and seemingly endless, the living hell or a high-tech Dark Age, a new home for refugees from earth...

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	11-01-2001 02:33									#9
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Hmmm... maybe.

I want it to go slowly though, which is realistically. We land a robotic "five-star hotel" on Mars, no people, then send people, with the robotic "hotel" building a craft for the people that get there to come home after exploring.

Then we gradually send more and more.

We terraform. Rains develop, plants spring, oxygen is apparent.

We then send more, more builders, buildings, etc., and we build colonies on the moon.

Realistically, I don't think there would be warring factions, pirates, etc. Its a good idea, but I want to stay empire-building and real. Perhaps economic fighting, fighting over resources, "war" being done by terraformers, spies, and sabatoguers. Such as, terraformers making flourishing enemy terrain desert... not "enemy" but a difference, a political difference I suppose.

Hmmm... still gaining ideas.

The scenario could last a long span of time, so we can allow war later on.

Competing colonies on Mars, like a Martian cold war, how to maintain the colonies and what not, would be neat.

More planning is needed, obviously.

	11-01-2001 03:12									#10
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If all civs start out with settlers on a inhospitable map, isn't the human player likely to completely outpace the AI-run civs? I played a game on a Anarctic map once and most of the computer run civs spent the entire game moving settlers around the map without ever creating a city.

	11-01-2001 03:29									#11
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I played a game on a Anarctic map once and most of the computer run civs spent the entire game moving settlers around the map without ever creating a city.

The AI is hard-coded to not place cities in Tundra, Glacier, and a couple other slots, so you'd have to use Grassland and Plains slots for the Martian terrain.

I played a game on a Anarctic map once and most of the computer run civs spent the entire game moving settlers around the map without ever creating a city.

You could always take my approach and write a program that custom-generates an event file that gives the AI lots of free stuff. The source code for the most recent version of mine can be found in Imperial Ambition.

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	11-01-2001 03:50									#12
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What St. Leo said, Jim.

And terraformed terrain will become very nice resources and what not. Probably a change terrain event when you discover various terraforming technologies.

	11-01-2001 05:27									#13
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I definitely agree with Hendrik. I would venture to say you absolutely have to read (or re-read as the case may be) the Mars trilogy (Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars) by Kim Stanley Robinson. In fact an interesting project would be to make a scenario specifically of the Mars trilogy. In any case, the books present many aspects of a colonization of Mars that are extremely realistic. Later on I'll post some more ideas, but for now:

Terraforming couldn't realistically be done one little area at a time. Terraforming was more a process done to the entire planet as a whole. That was, in my opinion, one of the main problems with the Micropose Mars scenario. I think that the advance that allows terraforming should require numerous wonders, which would represent the scientific projects required to raise the temperature, atmospheric pressure, nitrogen levels, and to begin the introduction of life. These wonders could include:

-Releasing a mixture of greenhouse gases into the atmoshpere to raise temperatures

- (at later stages of the game) establishing a continuous shuttle to bring huge shipments of nitrogen from the atmoshpere of Titan to add to Mars' atmoshpere, thus raising atmoshperic pressure and nitrogen levels

-genetically engineering cold-resistant mosses to be the first life introduced, to begin adding oxygen to the air and to provide the bases for food chains. (there could be a random even once this is completed involving a mutant strain of moss getting out of control...)

- creating a space mirror of sorts to add heat and lengthen the lenth of daylight

-crashing Phobos into the atmosphere to burn up and thus add lots of gases to the atmoshpere


just some ideas for the projects that would be recquired to make mars viable for terraforming

	11-01-2001 05:46									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Some things to think about are who would be colonizing Mars, what would their motives be for doing so, and what would they expect to get from any colonies. Would it be nations, groups of nations, or corporations doing the colonizing? Would they be doing it for the sake of science and exploration, for profit, or for resources to aid wars on Earth? Would they expect the colonists to merely to research and explore, or to generate money or resources? How would the inevitable development of a Martian culture affect the situation?

-GeoDan

	11-01-2001 05:57									#15
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The designers of the Mars scanario included with FW seem to have read Kim Stanley Robinsons (brilliant) trilogy. A lot of the ideas that Geography Dan mentioned are implimented in the mars scenario in one way or another.

For a while I've been considering making a scenario of the series, but have never been able to find a good map of Mars to get me started.

For simplicity I'd set the scenario after the first martian revolution and have the folowing civs:
-UNTA (the UN+ some big multinationals)
-Praxis
-The Underground (split into the First 100, Mars First and Bogonovists, but strongly allied with each other)
-Reds (perhaps as barbarians?)
-Mars (for impassible terrain, etc)

Setting the scenario before the first revolution would also be very interesting...

------------------
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith
[This message has been edited by Case (edited January 10, 2001).]

	11-01-2001 06:13									#16
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I don't think the First Hudnred would be their own civ, maybe its possible however to have units representing important members of the first hundred, not as military units but as characters to inspire locals for guerilla resistance, research, or the like. It might make an interesting role playing scenario too.


But back on topic, I think any colonization would start by groups sending preliminry unmanned craft which would dump supplies at certain sites. Then colonists would arrive, and use the equipment to construct the very basic colonies. Whether robots could completely build a complex colony beforehand depends on the timeframe of this scenario, ie does it start around 2030 or 2100? Later colonies would inevitably start out far more complex than earlier ones.

	11-01-2001 07:08									#17
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Better to mix many things about Mars than feed off one source.

Case, barbarians can be used for impassible terrain.

Geography Dan, I know. I had an idea, like I said.
Technology called, "Sector 1 Terraforming." After research, the impassible terrain (barbarian) is destroyed, killed, and thus the resources under it you usually can't get to, you now can.

You do this gradually to all sectors. But stratigically. And maybe AI will not be able to do this?

That would mean that I would make events files for each civ. I would be willing, more than willing, to do so.

I plan to put an overwhelmingly large amount of time in this, so more ideas would help.

Change Terrain in events will, of course, be needed!

Yes, I've read segments from each book... not the whole trilogy. I love theories, not fiction, but the mixture of the two will make an excellent scenario!

Dan, exactly. There is no unit called "Terraformers." They are technologies.

To irrigate and what not, we will have an engineer unit, or something of the sort...

Thanks for the ideas, folks! Keep em coming.

	11-01-2001 07:14									#18
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GeoDan, I have the plans right here on a possible way on how we would colonize Mars. They are copies from work.

First, we'd send unmaned spacecraft to the surface. The spacecraft would filter in oxygen from the hostile Martian climate, and put it into a building that would hold about 10 people and supplies for how ever long they will stay there.

The people arrive, after many of these are set up. On these buildings, the spacecraft that sent them there are retained... and, using gases from the Martian climate with the filterers, we make, basically, rocket fuel! We have a ship to get back home now! This cycle continues, then we melt Martian ice, get clouds to form, rain to fall, plants to grow, meaning oxygen, meaning living climates in the long run. It is a long process. Very long.

	11-01-2001 09:00									#19
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I don't think that the colonies would be temporary. Perhaps the very first trip to Mars, or first few, might be of the temporary nature that you described. Those, however, would be expeditions more akin to the moon landings than to actual colonies. I think that, both in reality and for the sake of the scenario, colonies would be more permanent affairs. Also, they don't have to all live in little trailers in shifts until terraforming is complete. Terraforming of Mars, if at all possible, could well take 20,000 years! There could probably be thriving cities underground, built into cliffsides, in giant tents, or in domed-off craters, all without any terraforming neccesary. In fact, there would likely be groups opposed to terraforming, and thus it might never take place at all. If you think about it, there aren't many giant benefits from it, aside from the psychological, that wouldn't take thousands of years. (Even if it was terraformed, think how long it would take for a decent soil layer to develop.)


[This message has been edited by Geography Dan (edited January 10, 2001).]

	11-01-2001 17:30									#20
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Exactly... very long as stated.

Actually, that is how the colonies begin. They are small settlements, I suppose, rather than colonies... expedition teams with camps you could say. Dan, these aren't temporary. The people come home, more arrive, and once there are several set up on the surface, more can come at the same time in larger spacecraft with more utilities and what not.

Anyway, I plan on putting the scenario into some parts, or maybe divisions, for the sake of gameplay.
--First, exploration. Explore the surface of Mars, find where some camps should be set up. Set up the small camps, filter oxygen, explore more of Mars.
--Settle more "inland" but on a planet, simply settle more. Just begin mass settlement, "irrigation" "roads" "mines" etc.
--This part would be spent developing settled land, sending more to explore the terrain on Mars, get more supplies to your settlements, etc.
--Terraforming begins as a research. It will take quite a long time... I'm thinking, for the sake of gameplay, a span of 5,000 years, in the scenario, 250 turns. The scenario will be huge anyway.
--During terraforming, we can have many things going on. We can either have some sort of disaster, making for a "quest" to do something about it. We can have some sort of Martian cold war, with competing colonies and nations back on Earth. The possibilities are endless for what to do during the terraforming process.
--And then, finally, a conclusion of maintaining a stable Martian colony. And possibly, try to take the rest of Mars. We'll see.

	12-01-2001 01:21									#21
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It looks like you really have some great ideas for your scenario. Sounds almost like the perfect mars scenario I never made...

Perhaps you could even include a special unit that can only be built after a certain wonder has been constructed if you work a bit with the Manhatten wonder and the nuclear unit slot.

When I think about it a scenario that actually plays on a more untouched, unterraformed mars might be even more fun, especially if you could manage to find or make some amazing terrain graphics.

Also at a later stage at least you could include orbitals and satellits.

As a thought most colonies should be more or less close to the poles because it is far easier to gain access to water there.

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	12-01-2001 01:38									#22
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Hendrick, thanks for your ideas as well. Much appreciated.

Colonies on poles... check.

Well, it will take a long time to terraform for the technology: 250 turns! So you'll have plenty of time to search Mars.

I am planning on putting Mars, yes, on a giga map.

Any objections, etc. welcomed, but this will make the time to make the scenario a little longer.

I have 20+ maps of Mars, and some pictures to make possible terrain. I'll make a lot of things and a lot of special terrain.

All: please see my Sci-Fi unit collection for some units that will be involved in the scenario.

More ideas will be appreciated, of course!

	12-01-2001 06:34									#23
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Actually, colonies need not be at the pole at all. There are underground aquifers all over Mars. As long as pumps are built (there's a neccesary city improvement) to get water from the aquifers, water is no problem. Given that, cities might flourish more in the equatorial regions, since those are not as cold.


There could be some events dealing with an aquifer pump bursting and flooding large areas.

	12-01-2001 06:51									#24
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Idea: Make a terraformer unit that can kill off only the impassable terrain littered everywhere, but a small area around each base. Make sure the unit can't kill anything else though.

	12-01-2001 07:02									#25
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How do I do that, though?

	12-01-2001 07:59									#26
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You place the impassable units everywhere. And give the tech allowing the terraformers when you want the civs to grow (or every once in a while).

The impassible units would have stats similar to the command post (in Part II) of Second Front, while the terraformer would be the combat engineer. The way Nemo set it up, you were more likely to win the battle then not. It would be a slow process, but it would represent the slow gradual growth of human habitation.

Ignore my atrocious spelling please.

	12-01-2001 08:48									#27
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Why do it on one Giga map when you can do it on four in ToT?

	13-01-2001 08:40									#28
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I think the first thing you need to do is decide who will be doing the colonizing, what their motives are for doing so, and what they will expect to get from the colonists.

	14-01-2001 00:36									#29
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This scenario has a lot of very interesting ideas bouncing around at he moment, but I was wondering Polaris, how are you going to address the problem of supplying water to allow irrigation to inland colonies? I remember that playing as either the Martians and the Ukrainians in the original Mars scenario was quite tricky because of this fact. Do you propose to have a map dotted with ocean squares; not just at the North and South poles to allow for easy irrigation, or do you have something else in mind?

Needless to say, this is more of a disadvantage for human players than the AI, as they 'cheat' when it comes to this fact.

Here's an idea. Don't have any actual rivers in the scenario. Simply plant a few single square rivers around the map at convinient places. Re-name 'river' to 'aquifier' and delete the graphic, creating a source of water for irrigation that the human player will only discover if he clicks (prospects) on the tile it is located on.

Like the others I can't recommend Kim Stanley Robinson's 'Mars' series enough. There should definitely be an event that changes the Hellas Planitia to ocean (maybe by researching a designated tech)...

	14-01-2001 08:16									#30
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Great idea our_man about rivers as aquifers! Also, Polaris, you should rename the aqueduct to aquifer pump and make it required for expansion past size 1 or 2, as it was the pumps that would make it possible for cities to be far from the polar areas.