09-12-2003 05:40									#31
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By all means! This sounds excellent. Personally, I wouldn't mind if we had to offer them as much as 60 or 70 credits - for one higher level tech, with the possibility of trading to the Hive for their gratitude, another tech, and possibly getting them onside that little bit more...

	09-12-2003 05:51									#32
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Great

Here's the PM sent to GT, Archaic and MM (who is online):

quote: Greetings GT, Archaic and Minute Mirage, I know you are debating our offer, but I have been authorised to sweeten it, if you can accept it relatively quickly. Our offer is that we send you Applied Physics, the Drone commlink, and a small number of ec, in return for Ecological Engineering. I do not have confirmation of the number of ec yet, it is being duscussed, but I should be able to tell you tomorrow. We know you believe that the council will be called, so the commlink to be worthless. The reason we think it won't be, is because of the two factions that can become governor, one lacks some commlinks, and the other is not sure if they have the votes, and does not wish to risk it. I think you may have to wait for a while for it to be called. What we would like, is that in your next turn you offer Eco Eng. That means we can offer App Phys, the ec and the commlink in our next turn, and accept it (with both sides down) and then you can accept it in your turn (2150) and the deal will happen This should give us a few days until you next play the turn, to discuss arrangements.

I say see what they say, but offer 20-30 ec first, and if they dont like it, go to 50. We should easily have time for that. See if they counter-offer.

Hopefully this will go ahead.

My general plan is that we dom this, pre-accept the trade to the Hive, since they want trust more than anything, and they give us the infiltration. We Pact in 2151/52 with the Hive, and destroy PEACE.

	09-12-2003 16:29									#33
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I concur

	09-12-2003 19:41									#34
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I'm willing to go to 70 EC's, but start low

	09-12-2003 21:36									#35
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Read on the Cycon-Hive forum that Hive will get Eco Eng in 2150 and he informed me that UNI is researching Environmental Economics.

Uni is not in as weak a position as I hoped for (that they were reseraching Aplied Physics now) but they are very high up on their bee-line and will likly have to get Aplied Physics next (I wish their was a way to know for shure). But on the other hand this dose not mean they will imediatly switch research and grab NLM in a short number of turns (they will have to go though their full research rate to get it), thus they dont represent any kind of military threat in the near future and likly cant help Peace before that war is wrapped up (but just to be on the save side we should start patroling our northern Coast by the mid 50's).

This senario is tricky and I am not that familiar with how Multi Player works so check to make shure this all works out.

Hive 49 - Lowers its tec acumulation enough to delay Eco Eng untill 2152
Uni 49 - Offers Cycon Eco Eng (unaccepted)
Cycon 49 - Counter offers Uni Aplied Physics, Drone Com and a sum of Energy Credits (this amount must be desided upon before we get to this point). We then accept this trade.
Hive 50 - dose NOT get Eco Eng as they otherwise would have
Uni 50 - Accepts our offer
Cycon 50 - Recive Eco Eng from Uni and send it to Hive Pre Accepted (showing trust)
Hive 51 - Recives Eco Eng and raises it reserach back to normal rates, Switches to a new reserach Goal and completes it next turn.
Hive 52 - Completes reserch in Biogenetics and sends it and a Pact offer pre accepted to us.
Cycon 52 - We accept Pact and BioGenetics.


Kody expressed dopt that the Hive was organized enough to pull such a manuver off successfully, felling that a disconect between Diplomatic staff and turn players might result in the Hive forgetting to do something and thus screwing everything up. I feel the benifits though are excelent and we should persue this strongly. We basicaly end up with 2 restriction lifting tecs and give away a level 1 tec that cant hurt us, an obsolete com link and perhaps as much as 50 energy.

Making it happen though hinges on the University making us the offer for Eco Eng in 49 which is their next turn and then accepting our counter offer in 50. We need to know what they expect in return, how many Credits or com links or what ever (give them all the com links if they want them). So lets step up comunications with Uni and get this worked out.

Would anyone be oposed to me sending Uni a simple Comunicay that explains their half of the deal (without any references to Hive at all)

They offer Eco Eng in 49
We counter offer our payment
They accept in 50
Our current payment Package includes
Drone Com link
Aplied Physics
40 Energy Credits

Is the plan acceptable? Is our Package acceptable?

	10-12-2003 00:55									#36
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The PUT gained the drone commlink frequency this year, so I discovered while playing the turn.

	10-12-2003 05:03									#37
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Have PMed GT, Archaic and MM to say we can offer them 30ec. If they want more, will go higher.

	10-12-2003 05:04									#38
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GT has a full PM box though

	10-12-2003 16:27									#39
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Try asking if they are interested in the angels commlink?

	10-12-2003 17:40									#40
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If either AI gets all coms I belive it will call the council, which we do not want for several more turns. If we can steal enough Peace bases and the Hive and Drone can pop boom a bit more then a Hive/Drone/Cycon vote can defeat a Uni/PEACE/Miriam/Angel vote. We dont want concil called untill its a shure thing for the Hive. So I dont think we want to give them AI coms. Their is a chance that Uni will just discover one of the AI's (likly Angels) and this will initiate the council before we are ready but we dont want to help this along as now the Angels could win with Uni and Peace support.

	11-12-2003 20:38									#41
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Total Silence from PUT, I dont think this deal is going to happen in time to trade it too the Hive. PEACE is late with its turn, but the Drones play fast. Then its off too Hive which will need assurances from us if their going to lower their research so as too tec swap Eco Eng with us. Push hard for contact with Uni, I belive their just inactive, by the way whats our current Portfolio?

Aplied Physics and 30 Credits? How high do we go Credit wise? If they ask a lot we should get a Hive loan of some sort as this trade will be REALY helpfull as it facilitates the Hive giving us Environmental Economics.

	11-12-2003 21:01									#42
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From GT:

quote: Yes, I have, and we're discussing them at present, although I've been a bit busy lately. quote: Hi GT, I noticed you're online. I was wondering, have you received the communiqués the CyCon sent to PUT? Greetings, Maniac

Should we try to arrange a life chat with some PUT members? Or increase the deal, for example offer Doc:Ini against Gene Splicing combined wih our previous EcoEng offer?

	13-12-2003 08:41									#43
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Sent by General Tacticus to me, Manic and Drogue



Uni/CyCon Tech Trade
Sent to Maniac, Drogue and Impaler[WrG]

Having discussed your various proposals for a tech trade between our factions, I can offer you the following deal: we will, as you asked, offer Ecological Engineering in our next turn, and in return, you will trade us Applied Physics and Doctrine: Initiative, and you will pledge not to trade Eco Eng to any other faction. Is this acceptable?


looks like Uni is driving a hard bargan, I see us as having 3 options here.

1 - Accept the offer, I would support this only if we are going to break the Non-proliferation and send Eco Eng to the Hive and get Environmental Economics from them in return. This would balance the deal for us in the long run.

2 - Atempt to get them to drop the Non-Proliferation requirment so we may legaly trade Eco Eng. They would probably not agree to this though as they know Hive is researching Eco Eng.

3 - Atempt to get them to add SotHB to the offer and we will add 30 credits to our end and the Deal with non-proliferation is agreeable to us.

Option 3 forks into several additional posibilites.

A - Imediatly contact Hive for reserach delay so that we may infact conduct the Eco Eng exchange. If the Uni screams bloody murder everyone claims that the Hive just reserached the tec on their own, though the EXTRA Environment Economics that the Hive would have would be a dead give away of what we have done.

B - Not exchange Eco Eng with Hive. This keeps us honest with the University but denies us a chance for significant improvment in our restriction lifting tec.


I think we should go with 3A ofcorse as its the most advantagus too us. Our Counter offer to Uni would go as such

Here is the Response I sugjest we send

The Concousness is not prepared to accept your counter-offer at this time. We calculate a low probability of satisfaction with a 2 for 1 tec trade with the additional restricion of Non-Proliferation preventing us from possibly recouping this imbalance. We Counter-Counter offer you the following trade.

Aplied Physics + Doc Init + 30 Credits

Exchanged For:

Ecological Eng + SotHB

We could agree to the above trade with a non-proliferation agreement on Eco Eng and SotHB.

Last edited by Impaler[WrG] on 13-12-2003 at 09:38

	13-12-2003 13:55									#44
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I sent General Tacticus a short reply stating that unofficialy I doupt it will be accepted but adding SotHB or dropping none proliferation would incresse the chance of acceptance and that we could add credits to our end if they do that.

If they do either of these things then I think we should take the offer even if it needs to be sweetened with Credits.

	13-12-2003 14:36									#45
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Please don't tell anyone I told you this.

The PUT just got Transcendent Thought 1. Sorry.

	13-12-2003 18:41									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] I sent General Tacticus a short reply stating that unofficialy I doupt it will be accepted but adding SotHB or dropping none proliferation would incresse the chance of acceptance and that we could add credits to our end if they do that.

Why would we want SotHB, except for the fact it is an additional tech? Non-prolif is nasty though, as we lose most if not ALL of our benefit by not being able to trade it.

quote: Originally posted by Tass The PUT just got Transcendent Thought 1. Sorry.

That's alright. They are a UNIVERSITY. They have no idea how to apply this.... we'll sell them our ideas on how to make this count for something apart from theoretical journals.

They'll thank us in the end.

	13-12-2003 19:47									#47
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WIth non-proliferation I say refuse. We want it to trade with Hive. We could offer more money (70ec?) if they agree that we can trade it, but we don't want SoHB, and Doc Ini is a very important tech. We don't want them with cruisers in the war against PEACE.

I'd say no to their offer and no to your counter-offer. We can offer more money, or your counter offer without non-proliferation and without the ec, IMHO (maybe 10-20ec if needed).

	13-12-2003 20:03									#48
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Can I send this to PUT:

quote: quote: Having discussed your various proposals for a tech trade between our factions, I can offer you the following deal: we will, as you asked, offer Ecological Engineering in our next turn, and in return, you will trade us Applied Physics and Doctrine: Initiative, and you will pledge not to trade Eco Eng to any other faction. Is this acceptable? It is looking strongly like it won't be accepted by the CyCon. We could agree to trade Doc: Ini, App Phys and 30ec, for Eco Eng and SoHB. Or we could offer App Phys and 60ec for Eco Eng. Or we could offer App Phys and 30ec for Eco Eng, with a non-proliferation treaty on Eco Eng (though it need not be reciprocated). Are any of these acceptable?

These are a few ideas I think are fair. Unless we gain from the trade overall, I would be against signing any non-proliferation agreement. Or we could mess them over with the non-proliferation since we will end up against them at some point, almost certainly.

Is there anything else they have that we dojn't, since SoHB isn't that great, but with a better tech I might agree to Impaler's deal.

	13-12-2003 20:36									#49
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HongHu said in the VoyForum that she assumes the deal is off. Seeing PUT's record it's unlikely after all that we could get a response on our counterproposal within the next five hours (before the Hive's 48 have passed).

Personally I would be against breaking the non-proliferation agreement if we traded. With the coming PEACE war I'd like not to alienate any other faction, especially since I hope we will be able to do other trades with PUT in the future. As Impaler says our betrayal could be easily found out.

I agree with MWIA that we don't really need SotHB. The Hive would only want to accept it in exchange for Gene Splicing if we added Neural Grafting to the deal. That's certainly not worth it IMHO. Gene Splicing <-> Neural Grafting in itself is already an even deal IMO. The Hive wants too much.


Personally I'd propose that therefore we forget about EcoEng and trading it with the PUT and the Hive. How about we try to acquire Gene Splicing from the PUT instead (not the Hive as they ask too much), as that is a prerequisite for Synthetic Fossil Fuels, very handy in the coming war? If we propose so to PUT, we should mention that "since we have recently learned that Hive also has EcoEng and Gene Splicing, we are not interested in EcoEng under the circumstances you propose." And then continue that we are still interested in trading "the less valuable Gene Splicing" but immediately say that we would certainly not be willing to offer two techs for it.

	13-12-2003 23:01									#50
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Sounds good. But Gene Splicing is a very important tech. I can't see PUT trading for much less than the Hive. I could offer the Hive a few ec and see what happens, or a cruiser for a turn, as they asked for before.

We could try a few ec and App Phys for GS?

	13-12-2003 23:20									#51
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Let's propose something like that indeed. Based on their answer, we can judge if it is worth continuing negotiations with the Hive.

	15-12-2003 04:54									#52
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How about this? I guess this is the basic info and message structure we need to transmit, but proposals to make it sound friendlier are always welcome of course.
---
Hello GeneralTacticus and Minute Mirage,

Recently we mentioned to the Hive that we were hoping to trade Ecological Engineering with you. To that they responded they will research EcoEng themselves soon and that they would be willing to trade both EcoEng and Gene Splicing to us as well if we were interested. After deliberation with the Collective I'm afraid we are therefore not interested to trade EcoEng with you under the conditions you mentioned in your latest proposal.

We are still interested though in finding out if instead of EcoEng a trade regarding the less valuable technology of Gene Splicing would be possible. We would again be willing to pay you for example Doctrine: Initiative in return, or as another possibility Applied Physics plus a bit of cash. But we wouldn't be willing to pay two techs for it as you proposed for EcoEng.
Would you be possibly interested in starting negotiations regarding such a trade?

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
Prime Function of the Cybernetic Consciousness

	15-12-2003 08:10									#53
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Sounds good to me, lests send it.

	15-12-2003 19:36									#54
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The University students and teachers must have got a subject in 'hard negotiation'

Seems like we'd better switch to another proposal like you guys proposed, let's try to get GeneSp instead then

	18-12-2003 09:45									#55
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I have advanced the PUT turn (to you guys) - as per the "rules" I did nothing with the offer you have on the table

Googlie

	19-12-2003 05:19									#56
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I agree with the message Maniac proposes

	19-12-2003 05:23									#57
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Glad to hear you approve, as I already sent it some three days ago after Phenix' comment.

	19-12-2003 06:34									#58
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Didn't see that

	19-12-2003 09:28									#59
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So far it sounds like things are on track - any further word from them yet?

BTW I volunteer to negotiate with Archaic if it ever becomes necessary. He will always be himself, but I think I can deal with him a little easier than most here, due to a collaboration on a certain interst in the first ACDG.

	20-12-2003 22:48									#60
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We need to get any message for Uni sent ASAP. Sugjest we send to GT and Archaic saying

"The Cycon Concousness desires to warn you that we will be going to war with PEACE on our turn (2150). We are quite prepared and predict we will cripple them badly. We wish for the Universtiy along with all other Factions to remain nutral in this conflict as it will be in our mutual interests. If nutrality in the war and a treaty between us is maintained then the posibility of tec tradeing between us remains open alowing us to maintaine a tec edge over the builder factions. Your treaty/pact status with PEACE dose not consern us but know that we will be infiltrating them on our turn so if you do not wish us to have low level access to your own networks we sugjest you go to Treaty. If on the other hand you interceed on PEACE's behalf the Hive/Drones (which don't not like you much) will likly take the oportunity to attack your rear. We do not wish for them to concour you though as they would become far to powerfull. Disavow all knowlage of this comunication and act suprised when we make our declaration of war imediatly following your turn. This message (and your computer) will self destruct in 10 Seconds....10...9.....8.....7....6............