15-01-2004 22:32									#121
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Ask if they can send us SoHB and Eco Eng that year. Do a trade, two for two. We need Eco Eng for forming, and we need trance crawlers.

	16-01-2004 06:22									#122
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Although of course the scout to retro-engineer would be the better option than SotHB right now.

	16-01-2004 15:12									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Sure. You want me to write and release the 3D article of our plans to pact everyone?

That would be great.

Anyway, I've sent a short message to Archaic saying that we hope to hear from him soon regarding his decision about the MMI proposal. I figured it wouldn't be good to directly start asking for SotHB and EcoEng right now while he hasn't agreed to our proposal yet.

	16-01-2004 18:30									#124
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I had a quick MSN chat with Archaic. Here's the log, with all smilies deleted however. Archaic really seems to be a champion of giving short answers. As a consequence I had to do most of the talking. Anyway, we reached a deal where we give Applied Physics, Synthetic Fossil Fuels and Mind/Machine Interface, and he gives Secrets of the Human Brain, Doctrine: Air Power and Neural Grafting. No HEC, Doc:Ini or EcoEng deal yet in other words. Pity we won't get EcoEng yet. But I didn't want to further push the point of EcoEng to prevent that he would cancel the deal, as he said he wanted a minimal deal.

Also he asked again about the pact, and I said that it would be ok to sign it this year already. Since we no longer need to keep up appearances with the Drones, I guess that's ok now. Do you agree?

Maniac zegt:
Hi Archaic, do you have time for a quick chat?
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
Sure do.
Maniac zegt:
You sent me a PM with a request for a MSN or IRC chat, regarding the MMI proposal I assume.
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
Regarding whatever you needed to talk about.
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
Not just that.
Maniac zegt:
ah ok, there are indeed some other matters too I'd like to mention.
Maniac zegt:
But the most important question the Consciousness is pondering right now is whether you would agree to the MMI proposal. Many subproposals of us depend on that.
Maniac zegt:
Have you had a chance to discuss with GT yet?
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
No, not at all. But I don't need to really either.
Maniac zegt:
So you can decide on the MMI matter?
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
Yes.
Maniac zegt:
And do you like the proposal? Do you want to suggest changes?
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
Firstly, I'd like to hear from you right here in this chat exactly what you think the proposal is, just to avoid potential confusion.
Maniac zegt:
Err, in short, IIRC it was in order for both of us to get to MMI, and also because we'd like SotHB an exchange of several techs to leapfrog. You switch to a tech we have. We give you it together with SFF. You switch to D:AP then and give it to us together with Neural Grafting so we can switch to MMI, research it and also give it to you. Then there are a few other techs added to the pot to make the
Maniac zegt:
deal even for both of us.
Maniac zegt:
We give Applied Physics (or Doc:Ini, whatever), SFF, MMI.
Maniac zegt:
You give us DAP and Neural grafting and possibly another tech to circumvent the mod 3 problem with selecting techs.
Maniac zegt:
Then a few other techs, that arent strictly necessary to get to MMI, but to be added to make the deal fair.
Maniac zegt:
That's about it summarized IIRC.
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
Count us in then.
Maniac zegt:
Great to hear.
Maniac zegt:
Do you also want HEC and Doc:Ini, or do you want to keep the deal as minimal as possible?
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
As minimal as possible, for now.
Though...we're Pacting this turn I hope?
Maniac zegt:
I hope so. Drogue says he'll write the article to announce our intention to pact with everyone (in reality only with you of course), but hasn't done so yet. Unfortunately I don't have the time to write it myself. But even if it doesn't get written, I'd personally propose we sign a pact this year.
Maniac zegt:
The reason we wanted the article announced first was that there was a possible trade deal with the Drones, that could perhaps not go through if they knew we were friends with you. But the chance of the Drones and CyCon reaching a deal have approached zero, so there's not much point anymore in trying to hide our true relation to you.
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
*Nods* So it would seem.
Maniac zegt:
Btw, as the third tech we need to circumvent the mod3 rule, would you be willing to give us Secrets of the Human Brain?
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
Yes.
Maniac zegt:
Thanks. I was wondering, would you be willing to give us SotHB MY 2153 or '54 already? We have need of the trance ability as well, besides simply needing a tech to circumvent the mod3 rule.
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
That could be arranged.
Maniac zegt:
Could be?
Maniac zegt:
Not yet sure?
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
Meaning, yes.
Maniac zegt:
Ah ok.
Maniac zegt:
Summarized, I think we now have an agreement for the following:
Maniac zegt:
MY 2153 or '54: you offer pact (I'll need confirmation to be sure if the other cyborgs want to accept it this year already, but it will most likely be accepted) and SotHB pre-accepted.
Maniac zegt:
MY 2154 CyCon turn: we offer SFF and AP
Maniac zegt:
MY 2157 or so I assume (was your tech speed one tech per four year): you offer us DAP and Neural Grafting
Maniac zegt:
MY 21xx: we offer MMI. I can't say a definite year yet because our tech cost will increase, but on the other side our labs per year will increase due to conquest of new bases and economic development etc...
Maniac zegt:
Correct?
·$(170,200,230)·&'rafy - ?????? - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien·0 zegt:
Looks like it.
Maniac zegt:
Thanks. I'll announce the agreement to the Collective then.

	16-01-2004 18:52									#125
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Looks good

We can try for an Eco Eng trade with PUT later, or just agree to the Hives trade for Adapt Econ.

Still no words from drones about any deal for Adapt Econ?

	16-01-2004 19:14									#126
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I just rechecked the possibility of the deal above using Minute Mirage's excel file, to see if the mod3 rule interfered. I discovered I made the mistake of assuming the PUT faction slot was 3, while apparently it is actually 2. As a consequence Archaic would not be able to select Applied Physics, but still Doctrine: Iniative. I asked him if that was still ok, and he said "I suppose". So I hope everything is still ok.

Anyway, is a Doc:Ini/SFF/MMI<->SotHB/Neural/DAP still ok?? Unfortunately Doc:Ini is more valuable than Applied Physics, but giving it would be necessary for the deal.

quote: Still no words from drones about any deal for Adapt Econ?

Was I supposed to offer them AdapEcon??

	16-01-2004 19:32									#127
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Yeh, it's still ok, since both factions get SFF, MMI and D:AP, and Doc: Ini for Neural would be ok as a trade. However personally I would have forgotten SoHB and gone for Eco Eng instead. If he can choose AP, then that's great, if not, then he can go for Doc Ini.

As for the Drone exchange, see the Drone thread. It was suggested by Impaler and I said go for it, but they were the last posts onn that thread so you may not have seen them.

	18-01-2004 22:09									#128
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Archaic:

quote: FYI. I am attempting to gain tech from the pirates, in exchange for the techs I have researched that I am aware they want. I plan on extorting them for all they're worth. However, I need to know that you can take them out, regardless of if they gain Neural Grafting, and perhaps gain the opportunity to go towards MMI, especially since I know they will have Strength 4 weapons soon, and it's still a while until you get your Missiles. Will be gaining their tech matter in the long run to the war effort?

	18-01-2004 23:30									#129
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we should tell PUT that thats a bad idea and the reasons are.

1 Pirates will be gone in 4-5 turns
2 We already have all their tec and are eager to trade them
3 Pirates will have no use for NuralG, it dosent offer any weapon or armor they need.
4 Theirfor it must be to trade with another faction, likly the Drones for a real military tec
5 If the drones get NuralG then they will start reserching MMI and will have it very fast (because they have bases full of Librarians)
6 That gives them the CBA and the CBF and the ability to chop Drop the University into oblivion.
7 Which basicaly gives them the game.

Tell Uni that they should trade Eco Eng or Env Econ with PEACE, also avoid giving them SotHB as the Hive has been asking us about that tec for 10 turns now, they need it to get to NuralG for colaboration with Drones. And contunue to be on guard for Hive/Drone Probes.

	19-01-2004 06:29									#130
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How about this?

Hi Archaic,

I would strongly recommend not to trade with PEACE!

As a first point I'd like to say that the Consciousness has all technologies that PEACE has, and we would be most eager to trade them with you. So trading with PEACE is not necessary at all. What techs would you want to obtain from them? We can offer you a deal that's much better both on the short term and long term.

As a second point I would strongly advise against trading with PEACE as it would actually harm you. Why do I think so?
Neural Grafting doesn't offer any weapon or armour, which is what PEACE needs right now. So most likely they want Neural Grafting to trade it with the Hive and/or Drones in exchange for a weapon or armour technology. If the Drones or Hive obtain Neural Grafting, they have the ability to research MMI in about four years, as the Drones will finish their research on Doctrine: Air Power this year. With MMI they will probably build lots of choppers and chop&drop you into oblivion. End of game.
The Hive doesn't really love you and you are already in a state of Vendetta with the Drones, so this is not at all an unlikely scenario. In fact I would strongly advise to build up an army after you obtain military technologies from us.

Enigma_Nova has told us the Hive plans to trade Adaptive Economics with PEACE if we don't trade that tech to them, so the supposition that PEACE would trade with the Hive is not at all a mere hypothetical idea. We've more or less told the Hive that we consider any cooperation with PEACE besides simply staying pacted a hostile act and a declaration of war, but with Enigma_Nova in charge I doubt the Hive cares about that warning - Enigma_Nova's not really a diplomatic-orientated guy...

So if the Hive notices that PEACE has Neural Grafting, a tech the Hive has told us in the past they really want, they will certainly not spare any effort to get that tech. The same counts for Secrets of the Human Brain by the way, the prerequisite for Neural Grafting. The Hive has been asking us about that tech more or less since we first contacted them, and in cooperation with the Drones having SotHB can also lead to MMI in record time.

quote: especially since I know they will have Strength 4 weapons soon

How will PEACE do that? Will they trade with another faction?

Anyway, PEACE has hardly given us any decent resistance up until now, and if it continues like that, they will soon be history. If they gain weapon technologies and start using them, they will probably not be able to resist us for any long time, but it would probably slow us down a little. Them having MMI though would be really problematic. Even one impact chopper can be very lethal. We would have to start building more military units again to counter them, which we would like to avoid, as all our bases have already switched back to civic production.

Friendly greetings, and stay on your guard for Hive/Drone probes!

Maniac

Last edited by Maniac on 19-01-2004 at 18:01

	19-01-2004 07:27									#131
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Seems pretty good. We could tell Archaic to get what he can out of PEACE with lesser trades if he likes, but as for trades of techs that could end up hurting him if the Hive got them - we would be best for those trades, as we could likely offer far better long and short-term deals than the PEACE Administration-in-Exile could now.

	19-01-2004 14:37									#132
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IMHO add a bit saying by all means trade them lesser military techs, and ones that the Hive/Drones do not want. Except for that, it's all good

	19-01-2004 17:54									#133
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Why say him it's ok for him to trade with PEACE if it are lesser military techs? Don't we want to do as much trades ourselves? Every tech he gets from PEACE is one less tech we can get less from Archaic.

	19-01-2004 20:19									#134
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No it isn't. He gives PEACE a tech, getting one of them. We get the tech when we take another one of PEACEs bases

	19-01-2004 20:27									#135
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True of course. But then what's the point for Archaic to trade with PEACE instead of with us, unless he doesn't realize we have the techsteal ability? What techs can he trade to PEACE btw? Biogen, Neural, SotHB, EcoEng and EnvEcon? Any others??

	19-01-2004 20:42									#136
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No idea. He could trade with them the same thing he'd trade with us. The only difference being he gets more tech. What's wrong with trading less military techs? If the Hive/Drones don't want them, and it won't affect PEACE much?

However send the message however you wish, either is good.

BTW: PEACE are researching Non Math IIRC, which I think is what he means by they'll get them soon.

	19-01-2004 22:03									#137
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From Archaic:

quote: Enigma_Nova has told us the Hive plans to trade Adaptive Economics with PEACE if we don't trade >that tech to them, so the supposition that PEACE would trade with the Hive is not at all a mere >hypothetical idea. We've more or less told the Hive that we consider any cooperation with PEACE >besides simply staying pacted a hostile act and a declaration of war, but with Enigma_Nova in >charge I doubt the Hive cares about that warning - Enigma_Nova's not really a diplomatic->orientated guy...

IIRC, Peace had that tech as of the last turn I played.

quote: quote: especially since I know they will have Strength 4 weapons soon How will PEACE do that? Will they trade with another faction?

IIRC, and I'm not getting games confused, they are but 1 or 2 years away from completing research in Nonlinear Maths.

No need to respond to the rest. I won't trade with them, or at least, I won't give them anything. If they happen to come to me and I tell them to pre-accept or the deal is off, then backstab them, why...that's their problem, isn't it?

A

---

	19-01-2004 22:11									#138
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My reply:

quote: Hi Archaic, >"IIRC, Peace had that tech as of the last turn I played." Sorry for a possible misunderstanding. It's PEACE that could trade AdapEcon to the Hive. >IIRC, and I'm not getting games confused, they are but 1 or 2 years >away from completing research in Nonlinear Maths. They only generate IIRC 7 labs per year these days, and they will research NonlMath in about 70 years. :-D >No need to respond to the rest. I won't trade with them, or at >least, I won't give them anything. If they happen to come to me and >I tell them to pre-accept or the deal is off, then backstab them, >why...that's their problem, isn't it? May I ask which techs you hope to acquire from PEACE this way? Friendly greetings, Maniac

quote: What's wrong with trading less military techs? If the Hive/Drones don't want them, and it won't affect PEACE much?

Every tech he obtains from PEACE, especially if he doesn't give anything in return - such as EcoEng or EnvEcon - as seems to be his intention, is a tech we can no longer to trade to him in exchange for a tech of his. We're losing here.

	19-01-2004 22:24									#139
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He has a point though. If he can pre-accept things from PEACE, he get's them for free. Why would he trade with us then?

I doubt they'll pre-accept things. Maybe as a last gasp, but they have too much pride, IMHO. Either way, there's nothing we can do to stop Archaic, we cannot offer lower than nothing.

Either way, let's take PEACE ASAP, offer them the to join us after we take these bases, and then hope they don't trade sillily.

	20-01-2004 14:23									#140
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Hell, if Archaic hopes to get them to pre-accept - give him my best luck! I don't think it will happen, and even if so, with PEACE gone soonish it will not mean we miss out on much, surely.

	20-01-2004 15:43									#141
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We won't miss out. Sure, we might not get a trade we otherwise would, but I can't see that happening.

	20-01-2004 18:24									#142
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Hmm, one danger though is that if Archaic succesfully backstabs PEACE, and then some pirates join us after their eradication, that he might be faced with increasinly hostile neighbours as those pirates influence our foreign affairs policy.
Anyway, it may not be a problem after all. The latest from Archaic:

quote: quote: May I ask which techs you hope to acquire from PEACE this way? Probably none now, if they're not going to discover Nonlinear.

	20-01-2004 19:36									#143
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We could give him NLM, if he want's it? If he wants any military capabilities we could offer HEC, Non Math and Doc:Ini for Eco Eng and Env Econ?

	20-01-2004 23:11									#144
	Got spare money?

Lets offer it to him, it seems like he wants it, any tec he has would be worth trading for it. Infact if nessary we could even give it as a gift to help cement relationships (relations seem good now but if they should sour)

	21-01-2004 00:10									#145
	Inflate your Upload Space

I reckon ask if he wants the 3 for two offer, we get builder techs, he gets military techs, and we all end up safe and prosperous

If not, offer NLM for Eco Eng.

	21-01-2004 03:16									#146
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quote: Hi Archaic, Ah well, perhaps it is best this way. For if you would backstab PEACE that way, you would be faced with mightily pissed pirates (just like they were angry with us back with Doc:Ini). And when they move to other factions after their destruction, which seems like it will be allowed :-(, their new home factions would become more hostile towards you. :-( But if you're interested in Nonlinear Mathematics, we are certainly willing to trade that to you. :-) Greetings, Maniac

Let's see if he is interested.

	21-01-2004 05:02									#147
	Put an end to popups!

Great! Do this! Hopefully it will smooth any ruffled feathers from not accetping the Pact straight away, assuming we go that route so as not to offend the Hive too much.

	27-01-2004 02:35									#148
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Can I send this?:

	27-01-2004 05:02									#149
	Got spare money?

Looks good for me. I suppose NLM is one of the techs we can offer. What's the other? Adap Econ?

	27-01-2004 05:14									#150
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IIRC NonlMath, AdapEcon, ProgPsych, Doc:Ini and HEC. Though I wonder, should we give PUT any technology the Hive or Drones don't already have? With PUT's insufficient probe defences right now, giving a tech to PUT is basically giving it to the Drones and Hive as well.