21-12-2003 01:34									#61
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Unless they show hostile intentions towards us or ignore our PM, should we tell them the Hive will declare war on them if they help PEACE? Who knows telling them will have the opposite of the intended effect, as as a consequence of our threat they might think that without PEACE they will be completely surrounded by Hive allies, so that they'd better help PEACE beat us. We'd better let it appear as if we're cooperative towards them, and share their worries about the Hivean threat. How about this when leaving the Hive/Drone attack out?:

Greetings Dean Archaic and Director GeneralTacticus,

The Cybernetic Consciousness desires to warn you that we will be going to war with PEACE on our turn MY 2150. We are quite prepared and predict we will cripple them badly. We wish for the University along with all other factions to remain neutral in this conflict as it will be in our mutual interests. If neutrality in the war and a treaty between us is maintained then the possibility of tech trading between us remains open allowing us to maintain a tech edge over the overpowerful builder factions Hive and Drones. Your pact status with PEACE does not concern us - it is private matter between you two - but know that we will be infiltrating them on our turn so if you do not wish us to have low level access to your own networks we suggest you go down to Treaty. Also remember that if you keep the pact, you will auto-vendetta us when we attack. We will immediately offer you a treaty though. Will you accept that offer?
Please deny all knowledge of this communication and act surprised when we make public our declaration of war immediately following your turn.
Mani Alpha-3 Over and Out. This message (and your computer) will self destruct in 10 seconds....10...9.....8.....7....6............

	21-12-2003 02:14									#62
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I wouldn't tell them that much. A simple message to ask them to remain neutral will suffice IMHO.

	21-12-2003 17:33									#63
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Let's keep it simple - keep the bits about the fact we are planning on a war and that we are very confident of overwhelming victory, also on their treaty status with us and PEACE. Skip any mention of the Hive etc unless they ask. As far as they should be concerned, all we are doing is asking them to stay out of this, and the PEACE war need not affect our relations with them afterwards in any way.

Perhaps an additional few lines: Please keep this information to yourself until the war commences. We would very much like to continue to enjoy favourable diplomatic communications with the University after the war, but should you let on to PEACE about this too soon any contact in the future is likely to be less than friendly.

	21-12-2003 19:27									#64
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I would aprove of Manic's rewrite or any similar proposal. We need to hurry though as Put currently has the turn. Perhaps send them a stripped down version and additional info later.

	21-12-2003 21:00									#65
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Why tell them now? I'd say wait until we have the turn.

	21-12-2003 21:36									#66
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The whole point is to tell them on their turn so they can take actions such as un-packting PEACE, this shows non-hostility towards them (helping to avoid the deadly 2 front war). On our turn theirs no point, as we will have made the public declaration long before they play again. By giving them a pre-public message we lessen the chance that they feel threatened or betrayed.

	23-12-2003 06:06									#67
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Impaler: The PUT aren't going to un-pact PEACE on our say so. They are strong allies of PEACE. If we tell them now they will more likely build up military to declare on us. Why tell our enemies allies our battle plans? It's stupid!

The point of telling PUT is that when we attack PEACE PUT will automatically declare, due to AI. We have to tell them we do not wish to Vendetta them, just PEACE. That is why we need to send them a message. But in our turn, not theirs.

	24-12-2003 19:27									#68
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We should come up with a message to send to Archaic pretty soon. Better also include a hint that we're willing to pact once the PEACE war is over.

	24-12-2003 22:59									#69
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quote: PUT proposes secret Pact against PEACE PEACE have ****ed us researchers over more times than I can count. If not for your Vendetta this turn, they most surely would have broken their Pact with us this turn following my refusal to trade techs to them following my takeover of the entire PUT faculty board. They wanted Eco. Engineering, in exchange for a paltry Doc. Init. and Applied Physics. As if I'd give them such a valuable tech. I propose that our two factions silently (for now) join forces against this menace. Once the foul PEACE are eliminated, though a combination of your military power and my research added onto yours, I propose we join forces for good in a quest for a co-operative transcendance. For now, I suggest that this take the form of a Pact between our two factions, with the PUT publically staying neutral to your war while (for now) in secret funelling what we can towards the war effort. We would be also willing to trade tech to you, including Eco. Engineering and Enviro. Econ., on condition that no other factions are traded these techs without our approval. The same would of course be given towards any techs you trade to us. Dean Archaic PUT

I responded like this:

quote: Hi Archaic, Talking about a very pleasant surprise!! We were actually discussing within the Consciousness whether we should offer you a pact, but were unsure as we didn't know how close you were to PEACE. Due to Xmas days, internal discussions and all, it'll probably take a while before I can give you an official reply, but I'm positive that strong cooperation between our factions should be very well possible. On another point, I should also mention that as a consequence of the Consciousness declaring war on PEACE, the PUT AI auto-vendetta'd us, because of your pact with PEACE. We have of course no hostile intentions towards you, so I have offered a pre-accepted peace treaty to you. Hopefully that can be soon upgraded to a pact. A Merry Christmas, Maniac

	25-12-2003 00:04									#70
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This is indeed good news!

The PEACE/PUT reltionship seems to be weaker then we had previously supected (Pirates probly did to PUT what they did to use).

We will need to explain our PACT with the Hive and our voting for them (did we vote for them as we planned?). We may want to tell Archaic that the vote is in exchange for information on PEACE and the PACT is mainly to cement Non-Agression with the Hive and secure trade. Also we had assumed they would win the Govenorship so they would be getting info on us so we did not want to be disadvantaged in that respect.

Also we might want to tell PUT that Hive is planning to Probe Rape them with the Information that Govenorship will give them. They may wish to prepare themselves.

Our top tec trading priority with them is Eco Eng and we can agree to non-proliferation on it.

Our near term goal sould be to PACT with Drones next and then PUT giving us max-Pacting. Then a war against the AI's (particularly Miriam) and lucrative tec deals with PUT and Hive, possibly sell tec to the Drones. Once we dominate the Southern Hemisphere wer can start building up for a second and likly final war that will end with a Cooperative Victory with someone.

	25-12-2003 01:44									#71
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Great news. Great great news

	25-12-2003 02:29									#72
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Hmm....It appears that PEACE has been very naughty this season, to many people

	26-12-2003 20:21									#73
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Latest from Archaic:

quote: It will be accepted, and hopefully we can pact as soon as possible. I cannot afford to cancel my Pact with PEACE at this point in time, but that can work to our advantage, assuming you don't have infiltration info on them yet. What is the state of your maps at this point in time? I'm afraid to admit that the PUT's is poor. We know the location of the Drones and Hive (Close enough to be a worry, not close enough to be a threat until at least Fusion and Shard), but beyond that, we're pretty much sitting in the dark.

	26-12-2003 20:51									#74
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Sugjest we tell PUT to keep its PACT with PEACE for a time, I dont see any reason Archaic cant keep the thing in effect untill PEACE is completly gone.

We dont want to Pact with the University too soon, as it will hurt our Hive relationships. I wuld wait 2-4 turns and see to it that we Pact Drones first and University second. This will make it clear we are persuing a full PACTING strategy rather then forming an aliance. On the other hand we could make a public declaration that we desire a PACT with all remaining Human Factions. As the game will be a 4 faction game at that point we are in a position to be the "King Maker" here but we cant flaunt that too much without driving the other factions into an aliance against us. We must not alow anyone to supsect we are playing them against each other.

What the opinion on telling Archaic to incresse his Probe Defences, theirs Drones, Hive and Angels that will ALL want to Probe Rape him.

Ask about the strength of his navy to defend him from these Probe attacks. I suspect its very weak on par with PEACE's navy.

An exchange of Maps would be acceptable at this point to me as he will see only what we have explored. After we steal the PEACE world map though we will be giving a lot away so we should do it before that point which will likly come in 2-3 turns.

We should also ask if he is still in need of Aplied Physics and what their Price for Env Econ is. Recomend we agree to any non-proliferation agreements they require. By the way we need to get a deal with the Hive for Eco Eng soon, but not if it means giving away the PEG.

	27-12-2003 05:02									#75
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I think pact PUT soon. They are pacted with PEACE, for convenience, why can we not pact with PUT for convenience. Gives the Hive infiltration.

Have we infiltrated PEACE yet? If so, tell PUT. Helps with trust, and doesn't mean much.

I agree with Impaler on the trades. We need Eco Eng and Env Econ

	27-12-2003 05:47									#76
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How about this PM to Archaic? It contains rather much information, so if you want to leave things out, please suggest changes to the PM draft. I do think though giving this information is needed if we want to pact with the Hive and at the same time still convince Archaic of our friendly intentions, and prove that we can be a good ally against his enemies the Hive and Drones.

quote: Hi Dean Archaic, From the reactions from cyborgs up until now it seems everyone is in favour of signing a pact with you. Such a pact will be needed if we both still want to have a chance at winning the game, because we have recently learned that the Hive intends to aim for a 2-way cooperative victory with the Drones. Would you mind though if we waited a few years with signing the pact in-game? There are two main reasons for that. The first is that this year we signed a pact with the Hive. They had promised us a pact and even a co-operative victory a long time ago, but we waited for the start of the PEACE war to sign it as we didn't want PEACE to indirectly gain infiltrator info on us via their ally the Hive. However just this year we learned that the Hive will try to co-op with the Drones, and intends to break their pact with us some time in the future. We decided to sign the pact with the Hive anyway, as they or their pact mate the Drone will become planetary governor, gaining infiltrator information on us. Thus we lose nothing by a pact, but still gain infiltrator info on the Hive. The Hive doesn't know though we know they aren't serious about the Hive-CyCon pact. Therefore if we would now directly sign a pact with you, in the Hive's eyes their archenemy, it would be very considered very odd by them, they would become suspicious, and would (rightly so) think we aren't serious anymore about the Hive-CyCon pact. The second reason is related to PEACE. We don't want them to realize too soon they stand no chance against us. If they do, who knows they might obliterate all their bases just to annoy us , or seek help with our rivals the Hive or Drones. That would work in both our disadvantage. So it would be best that we don't sign pacts with both PEACE's allies right after starting the war as they'll feel completely isolated. Perhaps you could even give them some vague signs that you're on their side. We could then pact after we have captured PEACE's most important bases. We of the Consciousness could also make some public announcement that we're willing to pact with everyone that's interested. That would make it less weird for the Hive when we then ally with you some time later. To answer your other questions, we don't mind - would even encourage it - if you keep your pact with PEACE until they are fully assimilated, as you'll then gain extra trade, and PEACE won't be too discouraged too fast. Regarding maps, we have indirectly deduced the exact locations of all factions, but we haven't actually mapped them in-game. This will probably change though after we assimilate PEACE map data. If you want to exchange maps, I'd suggest we do it by exchanging screenshots instead of an in-game world map trade. That way if the map of one of us is stolen by probes, the other's map isn't stolen as well. Talking about probes, the Hive has told us a while back that they intend to probe rape you after gaining planetary governor infiltration on you. Do you have a sufficient fleet and probe defences to withstand them? If not, we would suggest you start building them up. Later we could send some of our cruisers to help you defend, but at the moment they have other business as you probably know. I'll probably contact you later to see if technology trading is possible right now. You indicated in your previous PM that you considered Doc:Ini and AppPhys paltry in exchange for EcoEng, while the time that GT offered this exact deal to us, - though we are certainly willing to accept non-proliferation - we found two technologies in exchange for one too high. Therefore we'll probably need some internal discussions to see what we're willing to offer for technologies such as EcoEng, EnvEcon and SotHB. Friendly greetings, Maniac

So what's your opinion what we're willing to pay for PUT technology? EcoEng and EnvEcon is of course always great. But if we're going for the PEG, even SotHB might be valuable, as with the trance ability we can upgrade our simple 0-1-1 crawlers instead of 0-3-1 to 0-3t-1, which IIRC gives much more minerals for the upgrade cost you have to pay. Preferable would be only to get a trance scout though, and not the tech itself. But probably Archaic won't have the naval capacity to ship such a trance scout to us.

	27-12-2003 09:03									#77
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I would rather we leave out the details on the Hives long term plans and their plans to ultimatly Coop with the Drones rather then us. If this was leaked it could be very bad for us. Admitedly much of the other information would be bad too but that bit (did we learn this from HongHu by the way?) could be particularly bad.

Change

They had promised us a pact and even a co-operative victory a long time ago, but we waited for the start of the PEACE war to sign it as we didn't want PEACE to indirectly gain infiltrator info on us via their ally the Hive. However just this year we learned that the Hive will try to co-op with the Drones, and intends to break their pact with us some time in the future. We decided to sign the pact with the Hive anyway, as they or their pact mate the Drone will become planetary governor, gaining infiltrator information on us. Thus we lose nothing by a pact, but still gain infiltrator info on the Hive. The Hive doesn't know though we know they aren't serious about the Hive-CyCon pact.

To

We are doing this and voting for them in the Govenorship in exchange for information they provided us PEACE. We had always asumed Hive would become the Govenor withough our help and thus voting for them was mostly a guesture. And if they were to become Govenor then we should not fall behind in infiltration.

	27-12-2003 22:30									#78
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Sent with your modification.

Edit: We indeed learn this from HongHu. However the rest of the Hive doesn't know she told us this, so it's best we don't mention to other Hiveans we know this.

Last edited by Maniac on 28-12-2003 at 00:40

	05-01-2004 05:30									#79
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Anything else that should be added? If not, I'll send it tomorrow.

quote: Hi Archaic, Have you received the PM I sent you the 27th of December? The Consciousness is sad not to have received a response yet. We are most willing to further discuss possible tech trades and of course a pact. But in the meanwhile we have learned new information that we believe you should know. This year we learned that the Drones are researching nothing less than DOCTRINE : AIR POWER !!!!!!!! If they get that tech way before one of us, they might try to attack you. Also if they or the Hive manage to steal Neural Grafting which you are currently researching, they might have MMI already in a few years. So we would again like to stress: please strengthen your probe defences!! There already is one Hivean probe skimship in the water, and also a probe team and transport we don't know the location of. We were also wondering if it might be possible to leapfrog to D:AP together to catch up with the Drones. To see if something can be arranged, can I therefore please inform what your current research speed is and in what year you will likely research Neural Grafting? I hope to hear from you soon! Maniac

	05-01-2004 05:48									#80
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Should also tell them that we can see the Hive has a Probe Foil out to sea already and it is likly moving towards them as we speak, The Drones will likly assist them in placing this Probe someware ware it can do a lot of damage.

I would propose that we offer a map exchange with them, we can use this map to possibly detect the Hives Probe Foil when it enters waters they have explored.

Also ask if General Tacticus or any other Uni members can act as a Diplomatic contact for the University. If we are to have an effective aliance open or secret we need diplomatic contacts to comunicate our plans through.

	05-01-2004 06:16									#81
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I agree with Impaler. Inform them of the probe, but make sure the Hive do not find out it was us that said it. We want each of them to think we value their friendship more

Map exchange sounds good

As for the contact, Archaic will likely do it himself. It's just a PBEM to him, not a demo game.

	06-01-2004 05:40									#82
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I have sent the edited PM above.

Should we really do a regular in-game map exchange?? Then there's the risk the Hive or Drones can steal our map given to PUT! If we would do a map exchange, wouldn't it be better in the form of them giving us their map in-game (so we can possibly detect incoming probes - that would only work though if PUT has explored the sea a little; and Archaic has admitted his map data is limited ), and we giving PUT screenshots of our map?
However, especially after acquiring the PEACE map, isn't our map much more valuable than PUT's??

Btw, what would you think of proposing to Archaic that he raises the terrain on square (80.52)? That way it will create a landbridge between our two continents, while at the same time still allowing ships to pass. A land link between us would greatly ease the exchange of unit prototypes, one of the methods the Hive and Drones use to keep their tech costs low.

	06-01-2004 06:22									#83
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As for the map exchange, I'd possibly go for a trade out of game, of screenshots. In-game is risky, but I wouldn't ask for more for ours, since it's bigger. Just trade screenies.

Raising the land sounds good, although I'd wait a bit, it may alert the Hive (if they see it) that we are joined with PUT of more than just a pact.

Also, I think we should release a 3D soon with an article that the government has decided, in light of the PEACE war, to try to raise relations will all other human factions, and thus we have offered Pacts to all factions. That way we can say to the Hive that we are just pacting PUT for trade and convenience, and we can tell PUT the same about the Hive and Drones (if we get a Drones pact). What do you think?

	06-01-2004 11:17									#84
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The disadvantage of out of game map exchanges is that we will be unable to use the Support screen of Hive bases to see their navel units in the Ocean, one of the main reasons I proposed the whole thing.

Also if the Hive was truthfull when it said that the University landed units on their coast by transport then the University should have atleast a partial map of that area. We know Uni has never explored or contacted the Drones by sea as they lacked the Comlink untill the Council was called.

This seems odd as the Drones are much closer to the University, the nearest Drone base being just 8 spaces from a Uni Base. This base would likly be the jump off Point for any chop/drop attack against UNI.

We want to exchange in game maps BEFORE we take PEACE map as Maniac points out the PEACE maps is probly large and valuable. Also I dont belive their is much chance that Hive or Drones will try to take the UNI map, they would steal tecs or infiltrate. If its come to the point that they are stealing the UNI map then Uni is likly toast anyways. Also consider that Kody used some kind of tecnigue to find all the Bases on the Planet and their names, combined with the Drones Govenor info they could likly reconstruct most of the planet.

	07-01-2004 03:02									#85
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Impaler has good arguments. I agree to an in-game map exchange.

quote: Raising the land sounds good, although I'd wait a bit, it may alert the Hive (if they see it) that we are joined with PUT of more than just a pact.

Such a project would take a lot of time to organize, so we'd better suggest it now, even if it will only be finished in quite a few years. Also we can't fool the Hive forever. We'll have to make them clear once that if they decide to co-op with the drones, they cannot expect us not to sign closer alliances with other factions.

Archaic sent this btw:

quote: I believe I did respond, yes. Sorry if you didn't recieve it. My probe defenses on all coastal bases are sufficient. With only one probe foil, he cannot take any tech from me. I would be interested in Leap-frogging, however I will need to wait until the next turn, to see how things have changed with your conquest of those PEACE bases. Likely my commerce has dropped somewhat. And I am of course interested in a pact (and exchange of maps?) at your soonest convenience. Archaic

How about I respond like this?:

Hi Archaic,

quote: I believe I did respond, yes. Sorry if you didn't recieve it.

I'm afraid I didn't receive anything after the 27th. Could you please resend the message if it contained something important?

quote: My probe defenses on all coastal bases are sufficient. With only one probe foil, he cannot take any tech from me.

That's great to hear. Though beware there is always the risk of a combined Hive-Drone probe attack. Impaler tells me, using his clicking-in-the-dark technique, an attack would be most likely in your NE, as the Hive bases are in that direction, and there's also a drone base eight tiles in NE direction from your most North-Eastern base (84.30).

quote: I would be interested in Leap-frogging, however I will need to wait until the next turn, to see how things have changed with your conquest of those PEACE bases. Likely my commerce has dropped somewhat.

Okay, we'll wait until then. Will you also review the possibility of other tech exchanges after you received the turn?

quote: And I am of course interested in a pact (and exchange of maps?) at your soonest convenience.

We have discussed a map exchange in the Consciousness, and we agree to do so, as soon as you want. So you can put it in the diplo-window this year. We'll offer ours in return then. An extra advantage of this is that we can spot incoming Hive units and warn you in front. At least if you have explored the waters between you and the Hive/Drones. Have you done so?
As for the pact, we'd like to pact some two years after we announce our intention to pact with all factions on Chiron in a 3D Issue. That way no one else will get overly suspicious when we pact. Hopefully a cyborg will find time to write the article asap.
Hopefully we can further agree to lots of cooperation in our next few PMs.

Friendly greetings,

Maniac

	07-01-2004 05:15									#86
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Looks good. I'll go for the map exchange too I wouldn't labour the point about the probes too much though. I also wouldn't say to pact after a 3D issue. Just say in a few years, or even sign it now. I can write a small 3D article about it tomorrow, and we can sign it next turn, since the article will read something like "we have offered pacts to all remaining factions" and so we could have offered it already.

	07-01-2004 08:42									#87
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Drones and PUT are at Vendetta. Have posted in Drones thread here.

	07-01-2004 15:07									#88
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Reply from Archaic. I guess he wasn't aware yet of the drone probe attack when he wrote this.

quote: I'll retype and resend the message later tonight. Thanks for the info, though I already knew the general directions of both the Hive and Drones. I'll get Probe team reinforcements ready for those sectors, if needed. I most certainly will consider those tech exchanges. Yes, I've explored those waters. May our pact be long and prosperous.

	07-01-2004 20:45									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I can write a small 3D article about it tomorrow, and we can sign it next turn, since the article will read something like "we have offered pacts to all remaining factions" and so we could have offered it already.

A small 3D article would be good. Though with the recent Drone-PUT upheaval it might be better to wait with announcing our intention to pact until we have hopefully received SFF and possibly D:AP from the drones.

***

From Kody on Voy:

quote: Hive will be mantaining their treaty with the university. Last turn I was watching the university unity foil+scout with one of our rovers. I'm not sure where the foil has gone this turn, but if they land on hive land again I'm going to push for the hive to declare vendetta.

Shall we urge Archaic not to bother the Hive coasts anymore?

From buster's PM:

quote: The probeaction got us environmental economics. On PUT the immediate plans only involves some techlifting.

Do you think this means that further probe actions will soon follow? Should we warn Archaic?

	07-01-2004 21:30									#90
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Yes, warn Archaic of both. Do not land the scout and watch out for further techlifting.

I'll wait a few days on the article, seems sensible. Possibly longer, though we want the Pact. Try to trade with Drones, though what for I have no idea.