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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:32
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Archaic sent this in reply:
quote:
Of course I'm interested. What can you offer us in return? |
Can I mail this back?:
Hi Archaic,
We'll give you Applied Physics and Synthetic Fossil Fuels this year, meaning there are IIRC five other technologies left we could possibly give you: Nonlinear Mathematics, High Energy Chemistry, Doctrine: Initiative, Progenitor Psych and Adaptive Economics. My offer is to give you one tech each in return for EcoEng & EnvEcon, meaning two techs in total.
I would also want to propose that for pure military technologies such as NonlMath or HEC, we do not give you the tech itself, but rather lend you units with an impact weapon, plasma armour, nerve gas etc, so you can retro-engineer them. But of course if at a later date (hopefully a date when all other factions have already acquired that tech, so they can't steal it anymore from you) you would need the tech itself to circumvent the mod3 rule or because you want to research a tech that has the military tech as prerequisite, we would of course transfer the tech itself to you immediately.
Besides the advantage that the Drones would not be able to steal from you the technology we provide you, another advantage of lending you units to retro-engineer instead of the tech itself would be that your tech costs won't increase due to having a larger # of techs, but that you will still have all the concrete advantages of owning the tech itself.
How does this sound to you?  And what two techs (or their concrete advantages without the extra tech costs) would you prefer to get?
Friendly greetings,
Maniac
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:32
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quote:
(GeneralTacticus) They've stuck a landmark on the 'Shrine of Googlie' saying "Road+Forest Area Near
Fungus".
(Maniac) lol
(GeneralTacticus) So unless they're trying to trick us, we can file that away under "what to expect
here".
(Maniac) I guess that's Kody giving instructions to other turns players :-)
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I didn't trust them to read posts properly, so I figured landmark was the way to go. Never realised you guys saw it.
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Snowflake
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falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
Edit: We indeed learn this from HongHu. However the rest of the Hive doesn't know she told us this, so it's best we don't mention to other Hiveans we know this. |
Yes this is the one time I was disloyal to the Hive. Back in the early days Jamski and I and a few others really liked the CCs and wanted to pact with you to the end, just because we are soul mates.
With close relationship with the Drones I knew that it would take a lot of effort for us to convince everybody for a 3 way win. I've actually got buster to agree that diplomatic victory is a possibility. However due to various reasons we have not been able to pull through any real trades or anything like that that strengthened our relationship while Hive Drones cooperation were getting stronger everyday. I was still trying to work toward that goal, until one day, after Kody shot down each and every tech trade proposal I had come out, and said something like "offer them loyalty as a gift", I suddenly realize that this is not going to happen. Kody was simply being practical and thinking for the best for the Hive. While some Hivers wanted to pact with you and ditch you when convenient, Kody wanted to be honest but he felt that the Hive didn't need the CCs, unlike Jamski and I, who would go with you disregarding the benefits or costs.
What finally prompted my contacting the CCs outside of the Hive's knowledge was when Kody discussed Hive succuss in diplomatic venue with somebody (Enigma or somebody else, don't remember), about how we successfully encouraged the departure of PEACE and CC, and nurtured the initial nice feelings between the CCs and Hive. I felt that it was unfair for a faction to be sacrificed so that we could boast about it, and didn't want my genuine effort to be used as a tool to fool you into the Hive's hand. That was when we were about to sign the pact, and you were about to go to war with PEACE. It was the feeling in the Hive and the Drones that unless the CCs, PEACE and PUT were pacted, you won't be an equal opponent for the Hive Drones alliance. So I suggested it to you. Only Jamski knows generally about what I did at the time, although sometime later I posted in the Hive forum and confessed about this. The original PMs and chats were never disclosed, unlike each and every other contacts I had with any factions.
Till today, I do not know if what I did was actually bad for the CCs. Whilel I was trying to make sure you can watch out for yourselve, I think perhaps what I did was actually pushing you away from the possibility of going with us in the end, no matter how slim the chance is. Effectively I have burned the last chance and have abandoned you for the Hive. It is somewhat a relief when I read today that it was actually Archaic proposed the pact to you.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:32
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Honghu,
You make me sound like quite the power mad dictator. I guess you didn't know that I always consulted someone else about decisions and mostly just followed what the person I consulted wanted to do.
quote:
"offer them loyalty as a gift" |
I was completely serious about that comment. Anyway as I explained at the time, making bad deals for ourselves is just going to break the relations faster. It was better to give a gift as it means far more than an unbalanced trade.
quote:
Kody wanted to be honest but he felt that the Hive didn't need the CCs, unlike Jamski and I, who would go with you disregarding the benefits or costs.
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Jamski and Honghu spent the time talking to the wrong person, they needed to convince the other members, not me. I picked one thing I wouldn't be flexibile on (keeping promises and honour etc). However, aside from that I made a conscious effort to not let my opinions interfere with what I considered was carrying out the directions set by my faction.
quote:
What finally prompted my contacting the CCs outside of the Hive's knowledge was when Kody discussed Hive succuss in diplomatic venue with somebody (Enigma or somebody else, don't remember), about how we successfully encouraged the departure of PEACE and CC, and nurtured the initial nice feelings between the CCs and Hive. I felt that it was unfair for a faction to be sacrificed so that we could boast about it, and didn't want my genuine effort to be used as a tool to fool you into the Hive's hand.
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I didn't feel very good about that tactic and Voltaire had to constantly give me counselling on the matter. Ask him about it and he'll tell you that I wasn't happy about it for a long time. He usually spent half an hour a day convincing me it was perfectly alright.
Remember you privately told me about that, but I never said a word to the rest of the faction. I let them continue to plot their tricks on the CC, thinking that the CC didn't know anything. Even later Tassadar told me the information you gave away, and I told him it was not an issue and continued to not say anything to the rest of the Hive. I don't think the Hive ever found out about that particular information leak.
Some background first as you caught onto the situation rather late, about 2-3 month before Googlie had raised concerns about the way the game was going and how it was going to be a lopsided victory for the Hive and Drones. Also it was becoming increasingly clear to me that the Hive would never pact with the CC. So I asked if we could give the game away and let the CC know the truth. I argued that the game would be more fun, and we would still have a high chance of winning etc. I was then specifically told by both Voltaire and also later by Buster that letting the CC know was out of the question.
Basically I had my hands tied, by the two people I felt had the most say in the matter.
I think a lot of this happened before we had even met the Cycon, that's why I palmed the job off to you Honghu. You're more assertive than me and I figured you might be able to convince the Hive to tell the Cycon the truth, or actually close some kind of long term alliance. I was actually quite hopeful that you could make it happen, and remember I went to quite some effort helping you hammer out deals that we never really wanted.
If you read many of the threads I made they're often devoid of opinions. In private conversations that never got posted you would find out I'm a pacifist and didn't agree with misleading people the way they wanted. However, instead of letting my own opinions make my decisions for me, I mostly sought the council of others first. Remember that all the time I had hours and hours of private conversation each day with Octavian X, Micha, Rokossovky, Vev, Voltaire, Jamski, Enigma, Dacole etc. That was me trying to find the middle ground between everyone on many issues and following a plan that would be most suited to most people.
I'm still quite upset that my team mates still think of me as a dictator. Also the fact that there was the mistaken impression that I was responsible for the breakdown in the Cycon-Hive relations. The two outcomes that I would have most preferred was letting the Cycon, Peace and university pact against the hive and drones or going for a diplomatic victory with hive, drones and cycon. I never liked the middle ground that people wanted.
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Snowflake
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falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:32
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Kody, I do not mean that you are the one who was responsible for the break down of the Hive CC relationship. Jamski, you and me used to be the three Hivers that are most pro CC. Roko was enjoying imagining about backstabbing, Voltaire was leaning toward Roko. Others just wasn't that active at the time, or didn't have important influences.
With Jamski became inactive at the game, when I realize that you started to believe that the CC is not going anywhere with us, it was not because I view you as a dictator, it was because I view you to be the last one that has changed his position away from pro CC, that I knew the Hive CC would never have that happy ending. For me, buster and Googlie was not the problem. It was whether the Hive wanted it. Painful as it was, I had come to the realization that I was the only one that really wanted it.
quote:
I was completely serious about that comment. Anyway as I explained at the time, making bad deals for ourselves is just going to break the relations faster. It was better to give a gift as it means far more than an unbalanced trade.
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This is exactly what I meant. The Hive did not feel the CCs is any useful to it.  I said that you "shot down my proposals". I was not implying that you didn't like CCs. It was just those proposals did not bring much benefit to the Hive that we liked. They were "deals that we never really wanted."
In fact the CC has their responsibility too. They have not wanted it wholeheartedly either, from what I can read here.
I'm not trying to put any and all responsibility to you Kody, regarding this matter. I'm actually thinking that it was my responsibility. If I hadn't told the CCs about the Hive's change of attitude, they might not be putting their hearts away in the first place. Instead of building trust, what I did was seeding distrust. This whole incident has actually made me think a lot, regarding whether total frankness is always good and why a relationship between people could or could not be successful.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:32
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Maybe I'm too defensive....
quote:
total frankness is always good |
I think frankness is always the way to go if you really want to develop an relationship. People expect you to not tell them certain things. Eg they'll think you're mad if you give them everything the very first turn you meet.
However, trying to hide things that you think will damage the relationship will probably damage the relationship more. Can't you see that's really what caused all the problems between the factions in the first place. People being evasive, lying, omiting information etc.
The university and cycon relationship worked okay, and notice how there were very little hidden between them. Same with Hive and Drones. Very little was held back.
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foolish_icarus
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the thievery continues
Nov 2002
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kody
However, trying to hide things that you think will damage the relationship will probably damage the relationship more. Can't you see that's really what caused all the problems between the factions in the first place. People being evasive, lying, omiting information etc.
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That definitely hurt relations between PEACE and Cycon (obviously). Perhaps a mistake on our part (and Cycon's). But then, to what extent should you go? From an IC perspective, the falling out between P and C happened pretty realistically, I guess. Not that it had to--but would you trust a pirate to be honest? Or a Cyborg? Openness and frankness were simply not among our faction's characteristics. So how much should one work to establish a good relationship between players, vs. a true-to-life one between characters? Having had this experience, I lean towards sacrificing "faction accuracy", to a certain extent, in favor of a working relationship. Though there is certainly an argument to be made for accurate RP. Perhaps more workable in a more relaxed setting.
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Snowflake
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falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:32
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Yes I have always believed and still believe in frankness. And this has been the principle that guides my behavior. However I've seen this hurting people. What I just did can be an example. Should I talk about what I thought at the moment? That would almost be sure to hurt your feeling, because you truely believe that you are true and fair to the CCs, while people are unfairly blaming you for the break up of Hive CC relationship. We've become good friends from total strangers, and that relationship is built based on understandings and trust. We've had disagreements before, and we've gone passed them. However is there a limit where a strong friendship can withhold differences? There's sometimes another me inside telling me that I should try not to say things that could make you unhappy, that the friendship between us is too precious to be damaged.
Sometimes I think trust and friendships are very fragile. One could break them without even knowing. I had trusted and been trusted by Drogue. But I realize that I have hurt his feelings and lost his trust because of that one message I sent on behalf of Hive trying to stall time before we start the Uni war. I have trusted Jamski but he has never trusted me enough to tell me what he did in that CC ultimatum scenario. Trust is so hard to earn and so easy to lose. This is only between individuals. When it is between teams of multiple people, I can't imagine how hard it can be to build and maintain trust.
I've been thinking why Hive can maintain its relationship with the Drones while not the CCs. Is it solely because the physical bounding? That we are located closely and coorperated early and simply cannot offord breaking up the relationship? Or is it because you have never done things like I did, to seed the distrust by telling them the other possibilities?
I've been spoiled by the Hive, that I always speak what I think, and am not afraid of offending people. But perhaps I really need to start learning the skills of diplomacy.
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27-01-2004 16:27
Let him punish us out of the game, at least we weren't defeated military then.
The only two landmarks I'm aware in the Hive is "the lake with strange orange ball" and "the broken heart hill".
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