25-11-2003 21:14									#1
	Dell cancels Indian tech support Enter the AD-FREE zone

Ha! Finally, outsourcing bites big business in the ass!!

quote: AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- After an onslaught of complaints, computer maker Dell Inc. has stopped using a technical support center in India to handle calls from its corporate customers. Some U.S. customers have complained that the Indian technical-support representatives are difficult to communicate with because of thick accents and scripted responses. Tech support for corporate customers with Optiplex desktop and Latitude notebook computers will instead be handled from call centers in Texas, Idaho and Tennessee, Dell spokesman Jon Weisblatt said Monday. Calls from some home PC owners will continue to be handled by the technical support center in Bangalore, India, and Weisblatt said Dell has no plans to scale back the operation there. "Customers weren't satisfied with the level of support they were receiving, so we're moving some calls around to make sure they don't feel that way anymore," Weisblatt said. He would not discuss the nature of the dissatisfaction with the call center in Bangalore. Dell is one of a number of high-tech companies that have in recent years moved jobs to India and other developing nations for the cheaper labor, which in Dell's case helps keep down the cost of providing round-the-clock support. Corporate customers account for about 85 percent of Dell's business, with only 15 percent coming from the consumer market. Worldwide, Dell employs about 44,300 people. About 54 percent are abroad. Among Dell customers dissatisfied with the company's use of overseas labor is Ronald Kronk, a Presbyterian minister in Rochester, Pennsylvania, who has spent the last four months trying to solve a problem that resulted in his being billed for two computers. The problem, he said, is that the Dell call center is in India. "They're extremely polite, but I call it sponge listening -- they just soak it in and say, 'I can understand why you're angry,' but nothing happens," Kronk said. He added: "Every time I see a Dell commercial on TV, I just cringe. They make it sound so easy and it's been a nightmare."

	25-11-2003 21:19									#2
	Got spare money?

someone created a fraudulent AOL account with my name and address and I was tearing my hair out trying to cancel it while talking to some pud from an indian call center...

good for dell!

but they shouldn't have moved their sh1tr there to begin with...

	25-11-2003 21:33									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Tech support for corporate customers with Optiplex desktop and Latitude notebook computers will instead be handled from call centers in Texas, Idaho and Tennessee, Dell spokesman Jon Weisblatt said Monday.

I.e. they've contracted a more highly regarded call center in Mumbai, India to handle those calls.

	25-11-2003 21:38									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: "They're extremely polite, but I call it sponge listening -- they just soak it in and say, 'I can understand why you're angry,' but nothing happens," Kronk said.

	25-11-2003 21:49									#5
	Got spare money?

Sounds like that last guy is ready to move into upper management.

	25-11-2003 22:03									#6
	Got spare money?

Don't companies have their own IT staff?

	25-11-2003 22:05									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You destroy Indian Jobs? Arent you aware they have Nukes????

I could not care less about this I admit.

	25-11-2003 22:07									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, but there is a big movement in companies to outsource support and programming to India. But if they provide crappy service, do you actually save money. I'd like to see more horror stories like this just so the bean counters think before laying off people ,thinking they will save the company a few bucks in the short run.

	25-11-2003 22:15									#9
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Don't companies have their own IT staff?

Yes, but they make American wages. In many companies, usually an executive twit gets the idea that it is more cost effective to get "experts" from foreign sweatshops, er, consulting firms for software support and development. So the company brings in several slick consulting services salesman to bid for the contract. The salesmen tell the twit everything he wants to hear and then the one who lowballs the best wins the contract. In those cases where offshore firms are used for development, the skeleton IT staff of the company is usually left to clean up the mess left by the "cost-effective" developers and eventually wind up rewriting said mess.

	25-11-2003 22:18									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

That has been our experience, but the practice continues. I have yet to figure out why. It must be a Dilbert thing. Here we come Estonia.

	25-11-2003 22:46									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The funny thing is, these offshore developers get sold as "experts" but I've worked alongside many (when they visit for a few weeks) who were just learning on the job. Just training. I've been in situations where I'm showing THEM how to write a particular application. It's nuts.

Unless a company has a CIO who has the balls to stand up to other executives when they demand their instant gratification, most companies will choose the fastest route to getting a task accomplished (throw $ at an army of offshore consultants) rather than give long-term consideration to staff development and ongoing maintenance and development of what is to be implemented.

At the beginning of this outsourcing craze, many companies didnt have a CIO position filled. Now many do, but even so, I'm sure that executive-level politics get in the way of many sensible decisions...

	25-11-2003 23:29									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The Indian call center personnel and officers are more easily manipulated and controlled by the Illuminati. Soon we will control alll your IT service. Fnord.

	26-11-2003 00:18									#13
	Remove this text

Well I am glad to hear this. A hospital that is near where I lived did the same thing years ago, and was outsourcing their IT. When people their realized how crappy the service was they decided that it would be better to have their own IT department on site. And that is how my mom got a job their, when they were putting their IT department back togather again.

	26-11-2003 00:21									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

In a few years these idiot coporations will see how stupid it is to have all their programming done in the thrid world. I cant wait for them to get bit in the *** and then come back to the US and trying to rebuild their own IT departments.

	26-11-2003 00:53									#15
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Well I am glad to hear this. A hospital that is near where I lived did the same thing years ago, and was outsourcing their IT. When people their realized how crappy the service was they decided that it would be better to have their own IT department on site. And that is how my mom got a job their, when they were putting their IT department back togather again.

Dare you go.

	26-11-2003 00:55									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Qi lai!

	26-11-2003 01:18									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: In a few years these idiot coporations will see how stupid it is to have all their programming done in the thrid world.

Programming? There is nothing wrong with Indian programming, it is the understanding part that is hard. Indian programmmers are just as good (perhaps better!!) than those coming from American schools. Part of it is because there are few respectable jobs for Indians. It used to be they would all try to go into Engineering and Medicine (which is still somewhat the case) because those were the two respected jobs, but now the MOST respected jobs seem to be in computers (and Computer Engineering, of course).

	26-11-2003 01:23									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: In a few years these idiot coporations will see how stupid it is to have all their programming done in the thrid world. Programming? There is nothing wrong with Indian programming, it is the understanding part that is hard. Indian programmmers are just as good (perhaps better!!) than those coming from American schools. Part of it is because there are few respectable jobs for Indians. It used to be they would all try to go into Engineering and Medicine (which is still somewhat the case) because those were the two respected jobs, but now the MOST respected jobs seem to be in computers (and Computer Engineering, of course).

I think it is much better to have done by people that are near by and speak your language. I dont really know about their programming skills, but I hope they suck so jobs come back to the US.

	26-11-2003 01:27									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I think it is much better to have done by people that are near by and speak your language. I dont really know about their programming skills, but I hope they suck so jobs come back to the US.

Why? If they are better than us (and many of them are), then they should have the jobs. It would be better for all of us. The Americans that aren't as good? Well they can deal.

And as for 'near by', a lot of Indians come to the US to work. Some stay, some go back. And as for 'speaking the language', the British left behind some good English schools. They may have an accent, but they are programmers, since when do they need to talk... just send an email .

	26-11-2003 01:32									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I think it is much better to have done by people that are near by and speak your language. I dont really know about their programming skills, but I hope they suck so jobs come back to the US. Why? If they are better than us (and many of them are), then they should have the jobs. It would be better for all of us. The Americans that aren't as good? Well they can deal. And as for 'near by', a lot of Indians come to the US to work. Some stay, some go back. And as for 'speaking the language', the British left behind some good English schools. They may have an accent, but they are programmers, since when do they need to talk... just send an email .

It is hard to communicate with someone just over the phone or email. You get a lot more from talking to person face to face. Also you have difference in time which is big. I am in the US and the person that is doing a program for me is asleep when I am at work. That causes problems.

Also the reason I hope that they suck is that I am going to go into the computer science field. Most of these companies though are not hiring them because they are better then American programmers, they are hiring them because they will work for less money.

	26-11-2003 01:34									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

From all that I have heard, when a company outsoucers IT services they general are not as good and it takes a long time to get things done. It may cut costs in the short term, but long term it might ending up costing them a lot of time.

	26-11-2003 01:39									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: You get a lot more from talking to person face to face.

Yeah, and seeing a lot of them come to the US to work, that isn't a problem.

quote: Most of these companies though are not hiring them because they are better then American programmers, they are hiring them because they will work for less money.

Typical American arrogance . They can't be better, right? The fact that American companies hire them to work IN AMERICA and have to pay them as much (and many times more) than American workers doesn't mean anything?

Indians tend to focus on certain vocations and as a result they've become very good at them.

	26-11-2003 01:45									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I never said that they cant be better. But a major reason why companies here in the US are moving IT jobs to places like India is because of the lower cost.

	26-11-2003 08:21									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Just a small troll:

Nearly EVERY Indian I've ever met is leaps and bounds more intelligent than the average American Even if they are conservative
Go India!

	26-11-2003 08:30									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui There is nothing wrong with Indian programming, it is the understanding part that is hard. Indian programmmers are just as good (perhaps better!!) than those coming from American schools.

Yes and no. Those coming out of IIT are head and shoulders above most Americans, but they represent less than a percent of Indian programmers. India is an extremely corrupt country, and the outsourcing boom there ha resulted in something similar to what the dot.com boom was like here, lots and lots of underqualified people calling themselves programmers. You can get a job as a programmer with only a three month training course in one language.

I have met Indian programmers that just blow me away. On the other hand, I've met more Indian programmers that didn't have a friggan' clue as to what they were doing. More and more, companies are discovering that outsourcing to India costs them more than staying with their own departments, since they have to rebuild what they outsourced.

	26-11-2003 08:32									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Nearly EVERY Indian I've ever met is leaps and bounds more intelligent than the average American.

Indians here are the cream of the crop, and not all Indians are programmers. A lot of them work in Dunkin' Donuts or the Kiwk-E-Mart.

	26-11-2003 09:43									#27
	Got spare money?

quote: Even if they are conservative

Conservative Americans or Indians?

	26-11-2003 09:49									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

Indians.

	26-11-2003 13:23									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

My only experience with Indian tech support was completely positive. The person I was talking to was obviously a lot better educated and intelligent than the average American I talked to - and this is not that surprising is it not?

	26-11-2003 13:43									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Yes, but they make American wages. In many companies, usually an executive twit gets the idea that it is more cost effective to get "experts" from foreign sweatshops, er, consulting firms for software support and development.

Sorry, my question wasn't clear. Most companies, even very small ones, have a rudimentary IT support staff to provide technical and user support for employees. So my question is, what corporate users would use Dell's support?

Now, to address your point, sometimes consulting services are valuable, if companies want to do some one-shot projects which are not part of their expertise base.

For example, say Office Depot wants to develop a B2C website to complement their brick-and-mortar shops. It's usually cheaper to get an outsider to do the job.

quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 In those cases where offshore firms are used for development, the skeleton IT staff of the company is usually left to clean up the mess left by the "cost-effective" developers and eventually wind up rewriting said mess.

Possibly, but most companies don't have in-house developers, and usually the contract should be binding enough to force the software house to produce something half decent.