26-11-2003 20:55									#1
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I love Civilization III. However, sucking at it and being fairly inflexibly unexperimental in my approach has me slightly frustrated.

I don't have Conquests yet but am purchasing it sometime before Christmas...

I tend to be fairly warlike. I think crushing lesser opponents on my border is a right, not a privelege. I see tiles and tiles of prime real estate and I can't resist. Unused resources that I need only spur my bloodlust to further heights.

As a result of this general approach, I tend to use monarchy and communism. I realize this costs me money but I could care less. I always set my science rate as high as possible so my coffers are often empty or nearly empty.

I don't upgrade units. Ever. Instead, obsolete units are used to speed up the development of newly conquered cities by rushing things like temples and libraries with disband.

I like to build cities with three tiles between them. Any closer and I feel they choke one another. Any further and you're wasting land. I like to mine the eight tiles surrounding the city and irrigate the twelve tiles further out. I build roads in every tile in a city's radius but only build railroads in lines connecting cities. I always build coastal cities whenever possible.

I like to randomly choose my civ and fill the largest map with fifteen other civs. I prefer the Persians but I'll take whoever. I think it's fun to try and modify my strategy a little to match the civ I'm playing as.

I build as many wonders as possible, although the Great Library is an extreme priority.

I like to use one leader a game to build an army so I can build the wonder that allows you to build more armies. Other than that, I use them all to rush Wonders.

Early on, I beeline for literature and construction. Monarchy is a secondary consideration. I beeline military tradition to get to cavalry and skip knights and chivalry altogether. I wait as long as possible to get education to prolong the effects of Great Library. I beeline replaceable parts so I can skip riflemen and go straight to infantry. I snatch up Theory of Evolution and I love to build hospitals so sanitation and scientific method are other prioroties.

I mostly play on Warlord with Acclerated Production turned on. I know that will elicit stifled chuckles from many readers but I get my ass handed to me later on.

What am I doing wrong? I played Civ II a hundred times as well and also dominated the bottom two difficulties and got massacred on higher ones...

Also, is the general consensus that Conquests is worth getting? I am leaning strongly towards getting it. I do have PTW already...

	26-11-2003 21:16									#2
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quote: I don't upgrade units. Ever. Instead, obsolete units are used to speed up the development of newly conquered cities by rushing things like temples and libraries with disband.

Mistake. Big mistake. As someone who does a lot of fighting (especially in PTW... Conquests has cut down on my warmongering a bit), I cannot overstate the importance of unit upgrades. It's so powerful, in fact, that the programmers increased the cost in Conquests (3gold per shield, up from 2g per shield). Generally speaking, it's easier to come up with gold than it is to come up with shields. Especially for players like me, who use republic more than monarchy, and who do not always run maximum research. 10 shields (warrior) + 40 gold = 1 swordsman. I'll do that over building the darn thing for 30 shields. Saves a lot of time. And that's worth the money to me.

Your city planning sounds fine (3 tiles between is what I do too, and it works pretty darn well on Monarch, so it should be just fine on Warlord). Your tech path... well, getting out of Despotism is a big priority for me.

If I had to guess, I'd say the most common thing that people do wrong in Civ is misuse/underuse of workers. Terrain development is absolutely crucial. The other thing that tends to happen is that people underestimate the importance of growth. Growth is also crucial. Pop is power. The more you have, the more tiles you work, the more production & commerce you bring in. Early granaries can be very powerful - especially if you can learn to manage a 4-turn settler pump (requires +5 food, and an average of +7.5 shields/turn as the city grows from size 5-7).

Anyway, I would suggest reading the threads listed in the topped thread in this very forum: "Must read threads." Loads of good advice in there. Be aware some of it is a little dated, but most of it is still applicable.

-Arrian

	26-11-2003 21:17									#3
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Oh, one other thing I missed:

quote: I build roads in every tile in a city's radius but only build railroads in lines connecting cities.

I assume this is a stylistic choice. If so, fine, but you have to know that it's hurting you. You're not getting the most out of your terrain.

-Arrian

	26-11-2003 21:37									#4
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Last first, yes C3C is worth getting. Forget about CivII, it does not relate well to CivIII.

Workers and tiles are the keys to CivIII. Make lots of workers and keep them busy improving tiles that citizens are working. Do RR all tiles, just prioritize connecting cities and then worked tiles. In the end all tiles must be have RR. You will need to get to the pollution quickly, you may need to get to a tile to defend from long distance.
At warlord, the GL should be nearly useless for other than culture and braggin rights. I say this because you should be first to nearly all tech by the last tier in the ancient age. This means the GL will yield no tech. If it is netting you tech, you need to look at how you are managing your empire (assuming a decent start).

Upgrades are the way to go in Civ/PTW, they are less attractive in C3C. You still have to do them, because otherwise you will have to build your army over and over.

	26-11-2003 21:50									#5
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I should say that to me the higher the level the more the Great Lib is worth to you. It is at Demi that it starts to be a real factor, you just cannot keep up with tech in the first two ages at that level. As you step down in levels it gets easier to hold your own until you go to Monarch. Below that it normally not an issue, I put Monarch as the point that the GL has some value, depending on your start and civ.
So far it seems to me that C3C makes it a bit easier to keep up if the civs are not one one large landmass. This is because they do not make contact as quickly and do not get the boost in research from contacts and trades.

	26-11-2003 21:54									#6
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As usual, Arrian's posts hit most of the key points. The only things I would emphasize are:

1. Don't be afraid to be a warmongering republic. Provided you set reasonable goals and develop a good, quick-strike war plan, you can handle the war weariness very easily. My guess is that, at the Warlord level, one or two luxuries will be more than enough to control weariness. The econ benefits of rep over monarchy are huge.

2. The GL is pretty pointless at the Warlord level. At that level, you should easily be able to outresearch the AI (especially if you improve your territory as Arrian suggests). Pyramids are a much better investment.

And yes, despite the bugs, C3C is definitely worth the investment.

	26-11-2003 22:26									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Generally speaking, it's easier to come up with gold than it is to come up with shields. Especially for players like me, who use republic more than monarchy, and who do not always run maximum research. 10 shields (warrior) + 40 gold = 1 swordsman. I'll do that over building the darn thing for 30 shields. Saves a lot of time. And that's worth the money to me.

But that in a way is my argument for disbanding. By sending waves of obsolete units to new cities I get instant libraries and temples. Building shiny new units generally only takes 3 to 7 turns. I do have to admit though that upgrading my defenses is a laborious task. One by one I build new defensive units and ship the old ones out to the perimeter of my territory to be disbanded en masse and contribute to the growth of the newer cities. But boy, is it time consuming. I've often thought about just spending the money to upgrade...

quote: Your tech path... well, getting out of Despotism is a big priority for me.

I agree but even over Literature?

I feel that I do make a mistake often as I tend to build a "cube" of nine cities with my capital centrally located. I quickly build nine cities and then, I tend to forget to build new cities for a while as I'm busily concentrating on city improvements. Perhaps, I'm not doing enough to build new cities. I think my worker use is probably pretty good, except perhaps for my choices regarding railroads...

quote: Anyway, I would suggest reading the threads listed in the topped thread in this very forum: "Must read threads." Loads of good advice in there. Be aware some of it is a little dated, but most of it is still applicable. -Arrian

Some interesting thought provoking suggestions. Thank you. I will check out that thread.

	26-11-2003 22:28									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Oh, one other thing I missed: I assume this is a stylistic choice. If so, fine, but you have to know that it's hurting you. You're not getting the most out of your terrain. -Arrian

(sigh) it is stylistic and aesthetic... those railroads are a hideous tangled mess. I suppose I should build them everywhere though...

	26-11-2003 22:31									#9
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 At warlord, the GL should be nearly useless for other than culture and braggin rights. I say this because you should be first to nearly all tech by the last tier in the ancient age. This means the GL will yield no tech. If it is netting you tech, you need to look at how you are managing your empire (assuming a decent start).

Uh... it usually nets me a LOT of techs. Five to seven I'd say... But would you say that might be because I'm beelining literature and it's construction, even forgoing the techs I could learn much faster like pottery and masonry?

	26-11-2003 22:34									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Tall Stranger As usual, Arrian's posts hit most of the key points. The only things I would emphasize are: 1. Don't be afraid to be a warmongering republic. Provided you set reasonable goals and develop a good, quick-strike war plan, you can handle the war weariness very easily. My guess is that, at the Warlord level, one or two luxuries will be more than enough to control weariness. The econ benefits of rep over monarchy are huge.

I might try that as well. Thank you. But what about warmongering later with democracy? I remember playing a game once with republic and democracy and being shocked at the difference in money AND research...

	27-11-2003 00:14									#11
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I've warmongered with Demo, sure. It does require either overwhelming force, a limited objective, or both. Having universal suffrage helps too, of course.

Republic warfare often just requires a little more reliance on the luxury slider. If you have a few luxuries, playing on Warlord, you really shouldn't have much trouble. If war weariness starts really kicking in, make peace and wait a bit, and then hit again in 20 turns (when the peace deal runs out. That way you don't ruin your rep).

Regarding literature... yeah, I'll often ignore it and just race for republic, and then come back to get it. The GL just isn't that big a deal to me. It used to be a cornerstone of my gameplay, but I've gotten better at a number of things since then, and now, playing on Monarch, I view the GL as a luxury. I'd MUCH rather have the Pyramids... or a solid army.

One of the keys for me is learning how to get the most out of tech trades with the AI civs. Granted, playing on Monarch, the AI has more useful things for trade than it will on Warlord, where it's research is crippled. Still, at least the starting techs should be traded for.

Let's say you start as... Egypt. This gives you Masonry and Ceremonial Burial to start. Well, if you meet Rome, you can trade Masonry + gold or Masonry + CB for Alpabet. You can then turn around and sell the Alphabet to someone else if you meet them before the Romans do. In this manner you can often acquire most of the 1st tier techs.

Pottery has become my #1 choice for first thing to research (if I'm not expansionistic, of course). It allows granaries, and granaries allow growth and expansion at a greatly accelerated rate. I almost always build a granary in my capitol. Often before building my first settler.

Regarding expansion in general: well, nine cities isn't very many.... and I play on Standard Maps. You say you play on Huge maps (the largest). On Huge maps, 9 cities is a pittance. DEFINITELY build more. Many more. I'm not nearly as experienced on that map size, but I'd say that you ought to have more like 20 cities by the time you finish your initial (peaceful) expansion.

-Arrian

	27-11-2003 00:28									#12
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quote: would you say that might be because I'm beelining literature and it's construction, even forgoing the techs I could learn much faster like pottery and masonry?

If the GLib is netting your Pottery and Masonry, I'll venture a guess that you're not trading techs. If true, you could probably reduce your dependence on the Library by trading.

Additionally, if you're as warlike as you sound, if the AIs aren't willing to trade, they should be willing to give techs when you sue for peace.

I also used to depend on the GLib at Regent and Monarch, but once I learned to tech trade and got better at managing my empire, I found myself only looking to build it in order to deny it to the AI or if it was convenient.

With C3C, I find other wonders are more important to me unless I'm unable to keep up in the tech race.

At least you don't have to unlearn being a pure builder like I did. If you're warmongering, I'd say you should move up a level and learn to love upgrading.

	27-11-2003 02:01									#13
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Work hard (i.e., mine). Get as many luxuries as possible. Trade often. Extort.

* Theseus thinks those are words to live by.

	27-11-2003 03:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Archmage But that in a way is my argument for disbanding. By sending waves of obsolete units to new cities I get instant libraries and temples. Building shiny new units generally only takes 3 to 7 turns.

You have to disband a lot of units to get even a couple of free Temples or Libraries. Because disbanding is so inefficient (at least, until the Modern era), you should never disband units unless you're running into money problems.

Arrian is right, Gold is a lot more accessible than Shields. Especially if you like building the Great Library; the less Commerce you need to spend on techs, the more Gold you have in the bank.

Try building a bunch (say, 30) Horsemen in the Ancient age, and save Gold to upgrade them all the way to Cavalry as the game progresses. Then try doing the same with Spearmen, which upgrade all the way to Mechanized Infantry! You'll be surprised at how much time your cities then have to build improvements (like Marketplaces, which bring in more Gold for...more upgrades!).


Dominae

	27-11-2003 03:50									#15
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Hang on, I think something might have been missed here - Archmage is using Acclerated Production, which is a substantially different game. Shields are now cheap compared to Gold, and the one time I tried it, shiny new units are indeed very quick to build, and the AI's all had got monster armies.

Accelerated Production quite significantly alters the balance of a game, and you'll probably find that most people around here don't use it, as standard game rules are really a pre-requisite for sharing strategies.

My 1 Euro's worth for Archmage, - switch Accelerated Production off then try the advice offered by the folks here - it'll probably be more appropriate than when applied to a modded game (which Acc. Prod is).

	27-11-2003 05:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Archmage Uh... it usually nets me a LOT of techs. Five to seven I'd say... But would you say that might be because I'm beelining literature and it's construction, even forgoing the techs I could learn much faster like pottery and masonry?

Well if you are using accel production, ignore me. I have no experience with that.

If normal play then beeline and skipping really ancient techs could net you some, but you could research them super fast with libs anyway. I don't beeline for lit at any game under emperor.
No need for it and I will be on std maps, so I will be needing to fight at least once more than liekly. This menas I need some of those units techs.

In C3C you may choose to try for SGL and hence go for techs. Again at lower levels, that is a reasonable play. At higher levels, you are not going to beat the AI to many ancient techs.

	27-11-2003 05:44									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Archmage Uh... it usually nets me a LOT of techs. Five to seven I'd say... But would you say that might be because I'm beelining literature and it's construction, even forgoing the techs I could learn much faster like pottery and masonry?

I should have said the skipping granaries could be very costly in terms of getting your empire going full speed. Being able to grow those workers/settlers/units quickly is a key factor.

	27-11-2003 19:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus My 1 Euro's worth for Archmage, - switch Accelerated Production off then try the advice offered by the folks here - it'll probably be more appropriate than when applied to a modded game (which Acc. Prod is).

You got it. I'll try that right now.

Thank you.

	27-11-2003 19:24									#19
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quote: Originally posted by ducki If the GLib is netting your Pottery and Masonry, I'll venture a guess that you're not trading techs. If true, you could probably reduce your dependence on the Library by trading.

I don't trade techs which I will also try. My basic complaint about trading techs is that the AI always wants to trade a tech thats further along the tree for one that isn't. I know NOT trading maps and techs doesn't endear myself to the AIs...

quote: Additionally, if you're as warlike as you sound, if the AIs aren't willing to trade, they should be willing to give techs when you sue for peace.

As everyone knows, there at the very end, they're willing to give you EVERYTHING to get you off their backs. I like to hammer a civ down to one last city. I keep them around like trophys of my military might.

Anyway, that's often how I acquire some techs and a lot of my maps. I'm glad satelites are back in Conquest.

	27-11-2003 20:14									#20
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Archmage, are you familliar with tech devaluation ?

Basically the more civs in contact with each other that have a tech, the cheaper that tech is to research or buy. So if you and you alone have Literature, but everyone else you know has Code of Laws, Philosophy and Mathematics, you'll probably get all three for Literature - at least to a civ not already researching Lit.

If a civ is researching a tech, they pay less depending on how much research they'd already done on it.

Always experiment with trading options and use the advisor. the AI will offer a world map for Space Flight so don't always take too much notice of their initial offer - so haggle (with the advisor).

Keeping in regular contact and looking for possible trades is valuable/essential at higher levels.

	28-11-2003 05:57									#21
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Bright Day Everybody.

I am myself on another hand having problems at regent difficulty level . Most of your post are very good, but some things keep me wondering . Most of you advise for early change to Republic. Unforunately time after time when I try this option I end with (for me ) deficit of aproximately twenty million. That even when I defend my cities with only one defender and my army generaly consists of no more than twenty units. Also another my question is: "Oh gosh where do you get money to upgrade twenty units?!?" From begining I play with seventy percent of taxes into research and ten to luxury. Many times I have to rely on barbarians as my source of income.

I think I should say some things more. My overall strategy is to establish a breeding city early in the game, while one higher production city creates some wonder (usually Pyramids) and newly founded cities builds temples as their first action. Also I usually play Huge maps, ravageing barbarians and ten plus civilizations.

Any of your replies would be most welcomed. Have a most bright day ..

Last edited by Gladi on 28-11-2003 at 08:28

	28-11-2003 06:22									#22
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Gladi- In the early game, you will not need to spend money on the luxury slider. Make sure you build marketplaces, they are crucial to the expansion of your economy. When you build new cities, dont build temples off the bat. Try going for some military units, or workers/ settlers- and while you are building these units, you should be developing the tiles around the city. This insures more gold, more production/growth, and will make the city self sufficient. Another note, don't set one city aside to produce a wonder. Build up its infrastructure, and keep all options open. once a city really gets going, you will be able to build wonders and improvements much more easily.

	28-11-2003 08:16									#23
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Temples is a bit of situational item. Regent is the same as Monarch for content citizens (2). This means you have some slack before you have to deal with unhappy people.

If you are cranking out workers/settlers from those first two cities, you should not have a big need for the lux slider. If you can hook up one lux in the one of those two cities, you should be in decent shape, unless those cities grow too fast.

In any event, I would just keep an eye out as they pop a new citizen and see if you have unhappy citizens to deal with.
I will use the slider when needed, but often it may be better to use a specialist.
Markets are great, but it will be awhile before you have that tech and and can build them.

	28-11-2003 08:26									#24
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Gladi, if we are talking about C3C, you may end up not getting Republic that soon. I would expect to make a stab at being first to those 3rd tier techs and beyond. So I will not beeline for Republic, until it looks like it is the best bet for next up. IOW I want to select a tech that I can get quickest and is not already known.

I may even not switch until I roll to the next age or I can see I cannot be first to any of the next tier of techs (this should not happen at Regent).

So if you can make contacts, you may be able to sell some tech about the time you are ready to switch and fill the coffers.

I would expect that you would have had 2 units for each city to get the garrison effect. By the time you switch you should have some cities and be allowed the extra support form size 6. If not, then you will have to cut back on one of your sliders. Chances are the tiles are not optimally used and hence not making the income they should. Look to see if you have citizens that could be on tiles that make more cash, that roads on on all worked tiles. If that is not enough, look to see if you have any tiles that can generate extra cash, resource ones, especially gold.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 28-11-2003 at 09:21

	28-11-2003 08:43									#25
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WoW that was quick . Tried Regent, got beaten and found your posts . What I really hated was that Ottomans ( accidentaly the same that gave me beating later on) finished Mausoleum of Mausolus one turn ahead of me. No problem let us switch to Great Library. There it was two turns by French .

Dear King of the Apes and Vmxa1. Thank you very much for your advice. I am going right back to try them .

	28-11-2003 09:27									#26
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Good luck. BTW what civ are you using? Go with an industrious one to start with. Ottoman are good in that they have Science and will get cheap libs and universities. One free tech for each new age and a well timed UU (sipahi).

I am not real fond of the MoM wonder as the temples are only temporary. As you play higher levels the speed of tech increases and that wonder will go obsolete much sooner. I would suspect at Regent it will last longer. I would also like it more in a larger map, where I may have more new cities on the same contient.
In a small land mass, it is nearly worthless.

	28-11-2003 11:13									#27
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IIRC, the MoM is 3 happies in it's city.
It's the Temple of Artemis that gives you free temples until Education.

I love the MoM.
I like the Statue of Zeus even better, but it seems too powerful.

	28-11-2003 12:26									#28
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Yeah, I got them confused. I no longer build the temple and I can't get the MoM above Mon unless I go all out. So I won't have either most of the time.

Zeus is a beeline, if I get Ivory or can trade for it. I feel it is more useful than any wonder.

	28-11-2003 13:07									#29
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Gladi- in your post you said that you only have about 20 units in your army. I'm not sure if you know this, but your workers (native workers that is, not captured) cost upkeep as well.

So, as an example:
Despotism
10 cities = 40 units free of upkeep
10 spear, 5 sword, 10 workers = 0 upkeep

Now you switch to Republic:
10 cities = 10 units free of upkeep
10 spear = 0 upkeep
5 sword, 10 workers = 15 units that cost upkeep
In conquests, for Republic it cost 2 gold per turn (gpt) to maintain units above your "units allowed". In this example, it would cost you 30 gpt to maintain what was free under despotism.

	28-11-2003 13:57									#30
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I am beginning to wonder just how different the government choices are under C3C. I am only on my first game played into the industrial era. Dutch, standard map, continents, monarch. There were 5 civs on my continent and I have just found the other three on a much smaller continent and a few islands.

I went for Monarchy knowing I would have to fight. I skipped Republic entirely, intending to pick up Democracy later.

All went according to plan initially. I took out the Ottomans and then Carthage, switched to Democracy and started building up my civ. Then Scandinavia attacked. I expected a government collapse through WW at any moment but it didn't happen even after a 40 turn war in which I lost a significant number of units (Swiss Mercs are good but Berserks are hard to stop). Admittedly I started with 5 luxuries and had 7 by the end. I also captured Sistine and I think this kept my core cities from serious unrest (most actually went into WLTKD at this point!). Several of the captured Carthaginian cities were starving as the governors used entertainers (I was on 20% lux) to keep them from disorder.

Apart from being reminded that the Vikings are at the top of the list with Persian and the Germans as civs to be killed on sight, it has been very interesting to find out just how far Democracy can be pushed in war.

My tentative conclusion is that Republic is the way to go if you are isolated and can get away with a small military. If you have neighbours and either they or you are going to be aggressive then Monarchy to Democracy looks a better option. In PTW I would never bother with Monarchy, always straight to Republic.