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Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:32
Exclamation  Old Post 28-11-2003 04:17 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Catchopolis Has Been Razed! Suffering from ads?

As reported by miccofl. Lucky Harbor is also gone.

This makes things interesting...

How foolish of them. They had a chance to delay us 15 turns instead they've sealed their fate. At least they help us out even if they never lose battles.

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 04:29 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Stupidity knows no limits....

MrWhereItsAt is offline MrWhereItsAt
Emperor
New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 04:39
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Enter the AD-FREE zone

Abandoned, not razed

Finally, we outlast them! And I have never been more happy to be wrong about GCA turtling.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 04:43 Visit Trip's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Abandoned, not razed

I know, but "razed" sounds much more dramatic than "abandoned."

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 04:56 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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Got spare money?

How about "burned, looted and pillaged, to the last brick an stone, with all men, women and children brutally slaughtered by horseman spears and sabres?"

maybe we are missing the part about babies being eaten but still good enough

vondrack is offline vondrack

Emperor
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 05:12
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:shakes head in disbelief:

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 05:24
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Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I will reserve my 'I thought as muches' and my 'I told you sos' until I see the save.

In the meantime... no, on second thought, I will wait to see the save before doing any kind of celebrating.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 05:41 Visit Trip's homepage!
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I would have believed you NYE if it hadn't of been so very foolish of them.

Now what do they do? Charge forward or retreat all the way back to BoP? Either way they're dead much sooner.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 06:02
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Well, Trip, maybe not so foolish. People can get lucky, yes?

Assuming that we were there intact at the start of the turn, I was thinking about pushing strongly to test our luck. Bombard with cats, attack with MI1. If 1 wins, then go with MI2. If 2 wins, then go with 3, and so on. On the round that we lost the first MI, then calculate odds for the remaining. If we lost the first or second MI, then likely stop.

That way, we could have tested to see if the RNG favoured us. It would not have required a total commitment to the blood bath. However, if the RNG Gods were inclined to favour us we would not have passed up the opportunity.

So, no. Given what their stated intentions were towards us, I don't think they were foolish from their own POV.

E_T is offline E_T
Emperor
Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 06:17
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I'm glad it's gone, for several reasons:

1) we don't have to worry about moving it with the GL still intact.
2) we don't have to worry about moving it
3) did I say that we don't have to worry about moving it....

Those and a few other REALLY valid reasons that are lost in a turkey & white wine haze....

E_T

rush is offline rush
Prince
Tokyo
Jul 2002
time: 12:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 06:40
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Very interesting decision by GCA. It could be due to :

1. they attacked us, inflicted some (maybe significant) damage but perceived that our forces are overwhelming, and that they risk losing Catchopolis next turn.
Our counterstrategy : we need to check our casualty rate. Don't rush into battle. We now definitely have the upper hand, considering that GCA lost their Capital - their main production base, and lost the GL. We can wait for our reinforcement to come and go for the final kill.

2. they decide to carry all their belongings across the sea and resettle elsewhere.
Our counterstrategy : we should built a couple of Galleys, and ask CGN and CFC to look out for GCA galleys.

3. they decide to move everything to BoP for a FINAL showdown
Our counterstrategy : i. send horses to nearby mountain to check the movement of GCA troops, attack them if the odds are good and ii. ask CFC to conduct an investigation of BoP next turn (not this turn, BoP is more than 3 tiles away from Catch, so they could not possibly get to BoP this turn).

4. they decide to put a Settler on a Galley to achieve immortality
Our counterstrategy : Go to UN

5. they decide to push all the troops Northwards to Apolyton/Bananatopia.
Our counterstrategy : i. send horses to the North to check if GCA troops move N vie land route, ii. We need to built more troops for the final showdown anyway. These troops should be enough to fight off GCA, since GCA units are mostly Pipeman, with few attacking units.

6. it's thanksgiving.
Our counterstrategy : send them a bottle of Apolyton wine, with Turkey etc

Vlad Antlerkov is offline Vlad Antlerkov
King
Do you have Matt Stairs in your house?
Mar 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 06:44 Visit Vlad Antlerkov's homepage!
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Well. As the CFC SGers would say, this is major weed. Not like we needed the GL anyway.

So I take it those calculations Lucky mentioned were about the most efficient way to completely dismantle Catchopolis and kill all of its inhabitants, while pinning the blame on us?

Rhothaerill is offline Rhothaerill

Emperor
Vincent Returns!!!
Feb 2003
time: 21:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 09:18
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Well, there goes my whole theory about them. I truly thought they would not abandon their best shot at holding us up.

Rhoth bows to the great wisdom of NYE.

EDIT: And BigFree.

Last edited by Rhothaerill on 28-11-2003 at 11:00

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 10:56
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Tired of ads?

Hey, I was the first to say it would be gone when we got the save next!

Seriously though......I TOLD YOU SO!

Tiberius is offline Tiberius

Emperor
Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 11:19
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Tired of ads?

What were they thinking ?!?! :shakeshead:

Oh well, the better for us.

Donegeal is offline Donegeal
King
Apolyton's Resident Law Enforcement Officer. Founder of the Glory of War, Champions of Apolyton!
Jul 2002
time: 05:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 11:21
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Well, I have to say that Trip no longer holds the "Most self destructive player in Civ history" award.

I think that CGA did their ever so lucky horse vs Merc attack and actually lost. They retreated because we might now be in a Golden Age when we were already productively superior to them.

Maybe they plan on making a stand at a future city on an Iron hill? Isn't the iron that we pilliaged so long ago on a hill surrounded by grass? They make it their capitol, rush barracks and wall, bump it up to 7 and sit there with their pikes healing to full each turn and their Horse Army killing a unit a turn? In the long run, the strat will fail, but any strat against us is bound to fail.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 11:30 Visit Trip's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by donegeal
Well, I have to say that Trip no longer holds the "Most self destructive player in Civ history" award.

Hey, look at what Grenouille and Firaxis did. They definitely torched more cities than I ever did.

quote:
Maybe they plan on making a stand at a future city on an Iron hill? Isn't the iron that we pilliaged so long ago on a hill surrounded by grass? They make it their capitol, rush barracks and wall, bump it up to 7 and sit there with their pikes healing to full each turn and their Horse Army killing a unit a turn? In the long run, the strat will fail, but any strat against us is bound to fail.

Nope, no hill, just grass next to the mountain. Shouldn't be too hard to take, especially if they divide their forces.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 12:20
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Put an end to popups!

Assuming that the save arrives here and all is as we see it now...

I want to pin a big kiss on Arne. He pushed to advance on Catchopolis. I was content to follow advice and build roads and do other things to build up. After I considered the forces we had and the likelihood of us winning through, I agreed. However, it was he who urged us on at a critical point, and I who followed.

Arnelos is offline Arnelos
Emperor
of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 20:04
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I'm going to agree with Master Zen on this one... stupidity obviously knows no bounds...

Frankly, I'm stunned... I figured the previous city razings were because they realized (correctly) that they could not hope to hold those cities. For the first time in the war, they're holed up in a city they can KEEP and it has the Great Library, their capital, is a top 5 city of the game, and their home... they could have made the cost of even attacking it extremely dear to us...

and they abandoned it.

It's just incredible...

I guess "luck" can only make up for so much stupidity...

E_T is offline E_T
Emperor
Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 20:33
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Suffering from ads?

They are moving to a new "safer" location, those Islands SW of CFC. That way, they can stay alive and still stay at war with us.

E_T

Vlad Antlerkov is offline Vlad Antlerkov
King
Do you have Matt Stairs in your house?
Mar 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 22:22 Visit Vlad Antlerkov's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by E_T
They are moving to a new "safer" location, those Islands SW of CFC. That way, they can stay alive and still stay at war with us.

E_T


Not for long.

BTW, should they pull the settler-on-a-Galley trick (as Rush suggested), what do we ask the UN do? Order them to settle somewhere, or just sink the galley?

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:32
  Old Post 28-11-2003 23:57 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither

I want to pin a big kiss on Arne.





roadcage is offline roadcage
Prince
Minneapolis Kansas
Nov 2001
time: 23:32
  Old Post 29-11-2003 00:48
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With regards to the razing....

We bluffed 'em (by moving in aggressively)
They folded 'em (by razing)

Let me join the big kiss parade.

Thank you Arne!

SSgt roadcage (retired)

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:32
  Old Post 29-11-2003 05:35 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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what surprises me is how supposedly GCA always checked the "odds" (they said so during their war with CDG). Surely they could have guessed that the odds of them scoring a major victory at Catchopolis was considerable, more than 50%. Yet they still razed it.

Let's see what trick they have up their sleeve next couple of turns.

Togas is offline Togas
Emperor
California
Jun 2002
time: 21:32
  Old Post 29-11-2003 12:03
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'd like to apologize for not seeing this sooner. Frankly, the signs were all out there, we just had to sit down and think like GCA thinks. Assume the proper motivation and objectives, and plan accordingly.

GCA decided, long ago, that they could not win this war. It was a realization that wasn't open to debate, it seems. Their tactics have not been how best to survive and triumph, their tactics have been "how do we make Poly suffer the most."

1) They inflict the most damage possible.
2) They destroy anything before Poly can take it.
3) They attempt to hurt Poly diplomaticly, economicaly, and in any other fashion possible.

They may have fought us at Catchopolis if our army were smaller. They may have held out for a few turns to make us bleed on their walls. But when our army arrived they have one very important calculation to make: They had to decide if it was possible for our army to take Catch.

If under ideal RNG (or massive reloading as they do and as they probably assume we might do because they feel such negativity towards us) could we get "lucky" enough to take that city. If we could under any scenerio, their best city, and a Wonder of the World would fall into the hands of their most hated enemy. They could, under no circumstances, allow that to happen.

All we had to do was force their hand by moving into position.

At this point, we must use the knowledge we have learned about them to help us better predict their actions. It is clear that they won't seriously turtle unless they think they can first damage us and later disband when a true "stack of doom" arrives. They will likely disband all of their remaining cities as we get in range, however, instead of dieing and disapearing, and letting us have our victory, they'll do something worse.

They'll stick a settler on a galley and sail it somewhere we'll never find them. They will live in a state of war with us eternally, making it virtually impossible for us to stay in a Republic.

If they can get enough boats, they'll drop horses behind the lines of Poly and try to damage our infrastructure rather than simply disband their units. They'll destroy our roads, sack any undefended cities, and try to wreck havoc on us before we take them down.

They may also gift workers and gold to a rival civ.

They will not gift cities, because it's possible that we could capture or buy those cities. They'd never allow that. Their cities will all be dusted by their own hands.

They need only set that one settler on a galley and send him out. Every other city will likely rush gallies and load up horses and pikes to come after Poly. Why defend their homeland when they're just going to raize it. They'll keep just enough units to watch us and likely evacuate them at the last minute as the final city is blown apart.

We need to be prepared for this sort of vengeful playing. We NEED to set up sentries and build galleys immediately, and we need to quickly try to beat them to their cities -- if for no other reason than to make them disband them faster.

We also should be prepared for some difficult diplomacy with GWT. I'm not sure if GCA got to them, but rest assured GCA has told GWT every dirty thing they can think of about us, and will continue to say and do the worst about us until we rid them off the face of this planet.

--Togas

Aggie is offline Aggie
King
Of GOW's half of BOB
Jun 2002
time: 23:32
  Old Post 29-11-2003 19:21
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Got spare money?

For the record, remember who said they would raze if we pushed them. Give you a hint, his name starts with an "A". But, thats as close to a "I told you so" you'll get from me.
Aggie

Beta is offline Beta

Deity
Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:32
  Old Post 29-11-2003 19:39 Visit Beta<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/lifer-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by roadcage
With regards to the razing....

We bluffed 'em (by moving in aggressively)
They folded 'em (by razing)

Let me join the big kiss parade.

Thank you Arne!



Yes Arne - thank you. But I hope you are not too insulted if I avoid the overt signs of affection.

Hagbart is offline Hagbart
Prince
Copenhagen, Europe
Feb 2002
time: 06:32
  Old Post 29-11-2003 20:12
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All the discussion about what to do was wasted... But it's still good.

joncnunn is offline joncnunn
Emperor
Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:32
  Old Post 29-11-2003 22:57 Visit joncnunn's homepage!
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Agreed were their most likely strategy of trying to get military units behind our lines to go after cities by any means (Gallys of course, but if there's a land way they can they'll do that as well) coupled with sending a settler out to sea.

Maybe their triguring our GA was also deliberate. (A REX phase is perhaps the least desirable time to have a GA and we definately need to REX.)

asleepathewheel is offline asleepathewheel
Emperor
listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:32
  Old Post 30-11-2003 02:46
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amazing, just amazing.

 
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