01-12-2003 03:01									#31
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St Leo: Only other peoples.

Great site by the way, your oil and water thing is my desktop!

	01-12-2003 03:02									#32
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You're not usually so simplistic.

It's just not worth to differentiatre and elaborate. Short version, you want a political success. Killing Iraqis, in whatever situation, doesn't help you at best.

"The increase of Iraqi on Iraqi attacks also reflects a lack of "solidarity" in the "Iraqi people.""

It reflects the serious risk of a civil war once the US troops leave. Unless you want to keep that protectorate forever.

	01-12-2003 03:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Roland is like the insurgents, desparate for attention against an overwhelming adversary that is on the inevitable road to victory.

You sound like Goebbels 1945.

	01-12-2003 03:10									#34
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woohoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	01-12-2003 03:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler It's just not worth to differentiatre and elaborate. Short version, you want a political success. Killing Iraqis, in whatever situation, doesn't help you at best. "The increase of Iraqi on Iraqi attacks also reflects a lack of "solidarity" in the "Iraqi people."" It reflects the serious risk of a civil war once the US troops leave. Unless you want to keep that protectorate forever.

Well, US has kept troops for many years in our other colonies including Germany.

	01-12-2003 03:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler It's just not worth to differentiatre and elaborate. Short version, you want a political success. Killing Iraqis, in whatever situation, doesn't help you at best.

It doesn't "help" unless and to the extent that a majority of Iraqis see the people we killed as an impediment to their own political and economic redevelopment.

In the ideal situation (remember, I've *****ed incessantly about unrealistically low numbers of troops from the very beginning) we would have long ago secured and destroyed all major munitions depots and supply points, and we would have been much more active early on in raiding and searching and destroying hidden munitions caches. Limiting the enemy's ability to resist is preferable to fighting him after he starts resisting, but that much of that opportunity has been blown.

quote: "The increase of Iraqi on Iraqi attacks also reflects a lack of "solidarity" in the "Iraqi people."" It reflects the serious risk of a civil war once the US troops leave. Unless you want to keep that protectorate forever.

That's always been a serious risk, and one the Bushies grossly "misunderestimated" We will be stuck there damned near forever (or at least until the oil runs out ) unless we increase the pace of training of a new Iraqi army, and unless we do a very good job of supporting the development of stable political institutions by the Iraqis themselves.

	01-12-2003 03:15									#37
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler It's just not worth to differentiatre and elaborate. Short version, you want a political success. Killing Iraqis, in whatever situation, doesn't help you at best.

You aren't really helping push foward your view of the situation if all you are going to say is that it isn't worth it to go into any detail at all just accept what I'm saying. It just makes you look like an idiotic parody of Fez.

	01-12-2003 03:15									#38
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Whimper, moan, and whine; but never say what SHOULD have been done.
Pretty safe attitude, big Mikey.

	01-12-2003 03:19									#39
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Anybody know the status of the Iraqi Army anyway? Is there any money to pay for it?

	01-12-2003 03:19									#40
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Whimper, moan, and whine; but never say what SHOULD have been done. Pretty safe attitude, big Mikey.

We shouldn't have thought we could bribe the Turks, and should have had three more divisions assigned at full strength from the outset, using airmobility and forced entry capabilities to enter the north and west in far greater force earlier.

Oh, and secured the ****ing route to Baghdad on the way up.

	01-12-2003 03:20									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Anybody know the status of the Iraqi Army anyway? Is there any money to pay for it?

It's about battalion strength, training schedule is slow as hell, and we really don't want to reconstitute their old army at any level even if we funded paying for it.

	01-12-2003 03:29									#42
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I thought that there were nearly 100,000 men already enlisted in the Iraqi defense force? That would make a rather unweildy battalion.

Would a civil war in Iraq after we pulled out be such a bad thing? It would attract and consume zealots from all over the middle east. A nice long civil war in Iraq might give future Islamic zealots something to think about, a something that might indeed be necessary before the Islamic world can truly adapt to the 21st century. The religious wars in late 16th-early 17th century Europe pretty much dampered the zealotry of Christian Europe. Maybe Islam needs to get something out of its system.

	01-12-2003 03:38									#43
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quote: Less than an hour later, in a third attack in Samarra, four men in a black BMW fired rifles at members of a U.S. combat engineering battalion. The soldiers returned fire, wounding and capturing the men, Cargie said.

haha

Hooah engineers

	01-12-2003 03:45									#44
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Is that you K Man?

Next we are going to hear stories about US computer programmers whooping insurgent azz.

	01-12-2003 04:02									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I thought that there were nearly 100,000 men already enlisted in the Iraqi defense force? That would make a rather unweildy battalion.

That's the "civil defense" force, or whatever they call it - glorified Wackenhut security guard types, not trained or equipped for combat operations, or trained in small unit tactics or integration with other units.

The actual combat trained force is about 1000 men so far.

quote: Would a civil war in Iraq after we pulled out be such a bad thing? It would attract and consume zealots from all over the middle east.

Depends on how much driving you have to do.

	01-12-2003 04:12									#46
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The reason for the large scale attack on the two convoys was that they were carrying a very large amount of cash. The US convoys apparently included 100 GIs and tanks. The enemy wore fedayeen uniforms, which probably made them easy targets. They apparently knew the convoys were carrying cash - which indicates an intel problem.

But the overwhelming victory by the Americans is remarkable by itself!

Bravo!

	01-12-2003 04:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But the overwhelming victory by the Americans is remarkable by itself!

Yes it is

But it's a good thing

	01-12-2003 04:15									#48
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How's Chechnya been lately there bud?

	01-12-2003 05:07									#49
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler You sound like Goebbels 1945.

Wow, you actually Godwinized a thread.

	01-12-2003 05:08									#50
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It's apparently his MO when he has nothing of worth to say.

	01-12-2003 05:17									#51
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Really? I haven't noticed - imo, Hersh has always (well, more than the average 'polytoner ) been thoughtful, knowledgable and well-reasoned.

I'm kind of surprised, that's all.

	01-12-2003 05:40									#52
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Hersh:

Best case is that you don't have Iraqis firing at you, but what do you do when they decide to take potshots at you?

As for a civil war, if you are concerned about civilian casualties, and Iraqi casulties, a civil war will vastly increase the deaths of both.

Therefore you should be hoping that the US continues to put a real commitment to make sure that this does not happen.

	01-12-2003 05:40									#53
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As I generally look at cnn before coming here I was 99.98% sure what this was about as soon as I noticed the identity of the thread starter.

I wonder if those 'convoys' were a planned op. to lure in and wipe out those same enemy forces. The casualty ratios would seem to indicate that US forces were expecting trouble, even in spite of the day-to-day attacks on convoys. It also mentions US armour which isn't widely advertised as present during most convoy runs.

	01-12-2003 05:49									#54
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Perhaps it is a defect in my character, but I have a hard time celebrating when human beings are killed.

	01-12-2003 06:08									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Perhaps it is a defect in my character, but I have a hard time celebrating when human beings are killed.

What percentage of US soldiers in the field do you think would prefer that nobody was shooting at anybody and nobody was dying?

Unfortunately, armies deal in a harsher reality, which is that the enemy casualties you inflict now generally reduce the casualties you'll inflict and receive later.

	01-12-2003 06:46									#56
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I don't disagree with that, Michael. But I don't think death is something to be celebrated under any circumstances.

	01-12-2003 07:05									#57
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon As I generally look at cnn before coming here I was 99.98% sure what this was about as soon as I noticed the identity of the thread starter.

quote: I wonder if those 'convoys' were a planned op. to lure in and wipe out those same enemy forces. The casualty ratios would seem to indicate that US forces were expecting trouble, even in spite of the day-to-day attacks on convoys. It also mentions US armour which isn't widely advertised as present during most convoy runs.

It's a possibility, although I'd expect a genuinely "planned" op to have helos and possibly AC-130's on call just over the horizon. US doctrine is to pile on mass firepower, and going into an ambush on the ground only is a bit dicey, even with a lot of forces. It's a question of when and where the ambush is triggered, and how quickly you can deploy (and what casualties you take when the enemy triggers the ambush).

Tanks slow you down, chew up the roads and are fuel hogs, but if you consistently expect trouble, they can be real useful, so I'd expect them to be a common feature to important convoys, or ones moving through likely trouble spots. I don't think anybody over there is operating under the illusion that we don't have a dangerous and active enemy who wants to fight.

The large casualty count seems to me most likely to be due to the enemy being Saddam Fedayeen, as opposed to real troops - ambushes are nervewracking, and you have to let the enemy get real close, and ideally let point and lead forces get beyond you, to have the maximum effect. Any movement, talk, miscommunication or premature triggering can just blow the whole thing apart if the force you're trying to react keeps it's head together and gets into the fight.

I also expect there's been a lot of review and training of our units in counterambush tactics and a lot of analysis of how the enemy tries to operate, and that's being used to help form our countertactics.

	01-12-2003 07:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I don't disagree with that, Michael. But I don't think death is something to be celebrated under any circumstances.

I'd much rather have live prisoners, because they're a lot more informative than dead enemies, but that's not a feasible outcome.

Death is incidental to victory. I'm more interested in the fact that we decisively and overwhelmingly repelled their attacks and what effect that may have on their morale and will to fight. The key is breaking their will to fight, and every victory like this heads us in that direction. If they don't quit, they don't give us, or the rest of the Iraqis, many alternatives.

	01-12-2003 08:53									#59
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MTG...The title breaks the rules

quote: Originally posted by Zylka How's Chechnya been lately there bud?

**** you too.

	01-12-2003 09:07									#60
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How stupid were these guys ambushing a convoy that has tanks???

DUH