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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Oerdin, you have your social dynamics a bit wrong. 70% of the Palestinian people support the suicide bombers. You could argue that they are all monsters, or you can ask how can a people be so terribly treated and feel so hopeless that this happens.
Much of the support for the suicide bombers comes from the constant "collateral" deaths of Palestinian civilians during Israeli military ops on the West Bank. The Israeli military is treating the West Bank as a war zone, when it is in fact an occupied territory. Under the rules of war you are not supposed to shoot missles into apartement buildings to conduct the assassination of suspected (usually quite strongly with sound evidence) terrorist leaders, you are supposed to go in and arrest them. Like in Northern Ireland.
The Israelis are willing to kill Palestinian non-combatants, INCLUDING CHILDREN, to spare their troops. Then they get upset and righteous over the resulting backlash. They engage in retaliation against family members of terrorists, bulldozing homes of people who often had no involvement, again in violation of the Geneva conventions . Every house they bulldoze adds to the the reservior of recruits for Hamas. They are seizing Palatinian property for the benefit of the Israeli so-called settlers, and have stolen the water from the Palestinian people. (you get to keep the land, I get your water - in a desert country, what a deal) If you don't believe me, google "Water Rights" "West Bank" and go to the non-Arab sources.
None of this excuses the terrorism! But it makes it understandable, as a people without hope lash out in the only way that has seen any success. As far as I am concerned, I wish the USA had kept largely out of it, and let other people become the target of the Moslem fanatics. Look at Northern Ireland. They have been killing each other over religion, dominance, and intolerance for close to four centuries. I expect to be hearing about deaths in the Holy Land while I listen to BBC world news in a retirement home  . |
You are so right. The Mayor who drop the firebomb was vote out of office by than huge landsky against him. The city was 17 million dollar in the red after all the lawsuit against the city the city is now about 2 billion dollar in the red.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
Why antisemetic and not anti-israel?
The word antisemetic is thrown around so much I doubt it has any meaning left in it at all... |
paiktis, think of what just happened in Turkey? Think of the speach made by the director of Zorba. Think of the malicious comments by Mahathir. Also, in Europe, it is the Muslim community who descrates the Jewish cemetaries and synagogues. Ditto here in the United States.
Now think about that Jewish Wall Street Journal reporter captured by al Qaida in Pakistan and whose throat was cut because he was Jewish.
There is no question, no serious question at all, that Arab and Muslim hatred extends far beyond the borders of Israel to all Jews. That is the very definitiion, is it not, of anti-Semitism.
To not recognize this, to deny this, borders on anti-Semitism itself.
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Cruddy
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Well, given how anti-Israeli the Arab world has been since 1948, it would be more hypocritical for them to pretend they actually give a toss.
Same goes for Israel, but Israel is hardly the only country that puts "National Security" before just about any other factor.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Ned, have you ever read the accounts of the violence used by Israeli settlers in the west bank?
Furthermore, before accusing everyone of being anti-semitic because they don't agree with the crap you say, why don't you read a first-hand account of how many Israelis view the Palestinians, I'll suggest Thomas Friedelman's "From Beirut to Jerusalem", and then, after reading, come here with a straight face and tell me that the racism has been soley the sin of the Arab side. |
When the facts are against you, divert attention, change the subject and always smear the opponent.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
You sure know your history... 
You should know quite well that the original Palestinian state was not limited to the West Bank but was a roughly even carve up between the old British protectorate of Palestine which comprised the modern territory of Israel and the West Bank. Thus, the Palestians had been cheated of land they felt was theirs since 1947, not 1967. Considering that this land had been Arab since, oh, let's see, since the 7th century, don't you think you'd be pissed if suddenly someone carved up territory which has been yours for a millenia and a half and gave it to your hated enemy? Saying that Israel deserved that land more than the Arabs is like saying Southern California deserves to be given back to Mexico because a long time ago it USED to be Mexican and now has a hispanic majority.
Now, care to show me a survey made before 1947 showing that 70% of the Palestinian population supported terrorism?
I thought not.  |
In other words, you agree that the cause of Palestinian terrorism is not the occupation of the West Bank, and Gaza, but the existence of Israel. Thank you for confirming the original point.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Master Zen, AFAIK, there were no "Palestinians" until the British mandate as Palestine was an ancient Roman province that ceased to exist upon Arab conquest. The people who lived there over the centuries were mainly Arab, with a minority of Christians and Jews. Most recently the people came under the jurisdiction of the Turks in their adminstrative district known as Syria.
At the time the British mandate came into existence, Zionism had been under way for decades. Jews had settled all throughout the mandate. No one at that time divided off certain lands and gave it to the Jews. Any land they "had" was theirs for centuries or theirs by purchase.
In 1948, the UN (not the Brits) divided the mandate between the Jews and the Arabs. The Arabs and attacked the new Israeli state and were held back by the Jews, thereby creating the modern borders that form the basis of the 1967 UN resolutions.
These are the facts. No one cheated the Arabs out of any land. Your statement to this effect is blatantly racist. |
A brunch of lies. First there where people liveing in towns,villages, and afew cities in the 1600's, 1700's,1800's
and the 1900's. By your logic the Eupean Crusade's of the middle age never happen as there was no holy site to visit
in Jerm.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Charles, did I say there was no one living in the area prior to the 1900's? No, I said the people who were living their were mainly Arab, with some Christians and Jews. I skipped the political organizational history of the area, including the Crusades, as irrelevant because my point was that the political entity known as "Palestine" ceased to exist in the 600's when the Arabs conquered it from the Romans.
Please identify even one lie. |
The arab called the area they conquest Palestine. The Turkey
also call the area Palestine as part of Syria province. It like saying Long Island doesnot exist as it apart of New York State. Or Estonia didnot exist as it was apart of Russia for along time and also it was apart of the USSR. The Russia and USSR called Estonia Estonia.
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DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT
Hypocracy : from Hypocrate (also sometimes spelled Hippocrate), Greek doctor, famous for the oath he invented by which the doctors commit themselves to do their best whithout guarantee for the sicks to be cured. Ordinary meaning : propensity to do well intended things, without guarantee of a satisfactory outcome.
Not to be mistaken with Hypocrisy : desire to do apparently good things with evil intent.
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Yes, I explained this awhile back. Hypocrisy comes from the famous philosopher Hypocrites, who had the most unruly of students ancient Greece had ever seen. Once, while giving them their due, he shouted, "Do know harm!", which was wildly misinterpretted. Hence, today's meaning of hypocrisy.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by CharlesBHoff
The arab called the area they conquest Palestine. The Turkey
also call the area Palestine as part of Syria province. It like saying Long Island doesnot exist as it apart of New York State. Or Estonia didnot exist as it was apart of Russia for along time and also it was apart of the USSR. The Russia and USSR called Estonia Estonia. |
Then, in a sense we a both right, are we not? What I meant was that Palestine ceased to exist as a political entity. You agreed with that, but observed that the people living there still called the area Palestine. I don't doubt that they did. So, in a sense, we are both right.
In a sense also, France, Spain, England parts of German, Austria, etc., etc., etc., are still part of the Roman Empire even though that political entity cease to exist millenia ago. For example, the people of France still think of themselves as citizens of Gaul - a Roman province.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:32
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Master Zen: I disagree with your contention that Palestinians hate Israelis purely because of the 'occupation'. An extremely large factor in Palestinian hatred of Jews is the fact that much of it is indoctrinated into Palestinians at a young age while they attend schools and kindergartens. This is true, unfortunately, in most (I hope not all) of the Arab world. Without this factor, the suicide bombings that are occurring today simply would not happen, because people would not be able to accept the killing of oneself, let alone of innocents.
Your statement that Israeli soldiers kill children or civilians in order to save their own casualties is one that would require much documented proof and examination.
Your other statement that demolishing houses encourages terrorism is doubtful, because anyone who is willing to kill himself in such a fashion would do so anyway, without such an excuse.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Anyone get the feeling the Oerdin doesnt like the Arabs? or the pacifists, the liberals, the North Koreans, the Communists, the Socialists, the French... or indeed anyone that isn't from the West with a pro-West standpoint... or a geologist. Anyone seeing a pattern here . |
Whaleboy, your lack of passion in your beliefs is annoying. When 9/11 occurred, Americans were shocked beyond belief. We were drawn together as one people, united in our grief and our resolve for taking the fight to the enemy, al Qaida. When the NFL games were held next, they all began with singing God Bless America. Flags waved everywhere and most burst into tears - even the men.
Unless you were here, you will never fully understand how we feel about this war on terror. To us, it is more than some simple exercise in reason. We want to kick some butt. We want to exhalt in Victory!
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:32
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quote:
Whaleboy, your lack of passion in your beliefs is annoying. When 9/11 occurred, Americans were shocked beyond belief. We were drawn together as one people, united in our grief and our resolve for taking the fight to the enemy, al Qaida. When the NFL games were held next, they all began with singing God Bless America. Flags waved everywhere and most burst into tears - even the men.
Unless you were here, you will never fully understand how we feel about this war on terror. To us, it is more than some simple exercise in reason. We want to kick some butt. We want to exhalt in Victory!
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And thus you have shown the liberal/pacifist case. Politics based on emotion are bound to fail. I'm sure you do want to exhault in victory, but men, women and children will die in the process. Thats where I get emotional. I know exactly how you feel about the war on terror. I know that means sweet FA to me and it is a sad indictment on you that it does. I look at what you said about the NFL, and I think "have things really changed since Nazi Germany?".
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01-12-2003 13:29
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