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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Droque, just one more small point. We do not have "blind patriotism" here in the the US with such a vigorous two party system. Everything gets "debated," even strategy on the war on terror. |
That is true. However Sept 11th gave a lot of leeway when it came to a way to deal with it, that many people wouldn't be taken seriously if they didn't want revenge. It would have been political suicide for a Dem to speak out against the WoT. Sure they can disagree with the details, but saying that the war on terror is bad would have lost credibility and votes. That shows that public opinion was so much for the war on terror, that I would consider it blind patriotism. Not in Bush, but in the belief that America has been wronged and needs revenge.
I saw Prime Ministers Question time the other day, during the Bush visit. Basically, anyone who didn't start their question praising the relationship with America was branded as taking cheap shots at the expense of the country, after Blair said "I am for strong ties, as anyone who has the best interests of the nation is" when questioned about whether he would bring up the steel tariffs and WTO ruling with Bush. This was remarked by a commentator (a member of the house of lords actually) as being unhealthy for debate. I don't doubt this could well be worse in the USA. If public opinion is one way, everyone must follow it, or lose votes, and thus the scope of debate is minimal. It's not that blind patriotism is the government pushes the people where it doesn't want to go, but that the emotional side of the people is harnessed and pushes the government in an emotional direction, which hinders rational debating on the issue. Hence the people's desire for revenge, not an impartial observers wish for justice.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:32
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No, you shouldn't.
* Drogue glares at Whaleboy.
Last edited by Drogue on 05-12-2003 at 07:11
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:32
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Defanged on demand
Last edited by Whaleboy on 05-12-2003 at 07:15
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:32
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... Master Zen, a reply, please?
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:32
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by popular demand:
quote:
Originally posted by Zevico
Master Zen: I disagree with your contention that Palestinians hate Israelis purely because of the 'occupation'. An extremely large factor in Palestinian hatred of Jews is the fact that much of it is indoctrinated into Palestinians at a young age while they attend schools and kindergartens. This is true, unfortunately, in most (I hope not all) of the Arab world. Without this factor, the suicide bombings that are occurring today simply would not happen, because people would not be able to accept the killing of oneself, let alone of innocents.
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and you ever thought WHY they are being taught that? How many decades were US schoolchildren tought that "Manifest Destiny" was a good thing, and British being taught it was their god given right to impose thei rule upon the savages? 
One this is a bunch of loonies doing crazy things, the other is when an entire nation supports them, and those reasons are deeper than just being "brainwashed".
quote:
Your statement that Israeli soldiers kill children or civilians in order to save their own casualties is one that would require much documented proof and examination.
Your other statement that demolishing houses encourages terrorism is doubtful, because anyone who is willing to kill himself in such a fashion would do so anyway, without such an excuse. |
Give me a break, a terrorist doesn't blow himself up just because a house was demolished, its the plethora of ACTS of destruction going around in Gaza and the West Bank which fuels the hatred of these people to blow themselves up.
Furthermore, you ASSUME that a terrorist would kill himself regarless of the external provocations that might well drive him to do it, whereas should these provocations be non-existant he might as well not be so willing.
But doubt all you can, any fool can see how terrorism in and around Israel vastly increases whenever the Israeli army is engaged in major operations like that. If you don't choose to see that relationship, so be it.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:32
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[/quote]
and you ever thought WHY they are being taught that? How many decades were US schoolchildren tought that "Manifest Destiny" was a good thing, and British being taught it was their god given right to impose thei rule upon the savages?
One this is a bunch of loonies doing crazy things, the other is when an entire nation supports them, and those reasons are deeper than just being "brainwashed".[/quote]
Master Zen, your two examples are both out of context, because neither called upon children to look forward to killing other people (and themselves). One might argue that this is irrelevant and that the effect will be the same, yet in a child's mind-which is what matters here- killing would probably be far removed from this propagandised notion of ruling over "the savages". Therefore once the child realises what ruling over "the savages" is-that is, it may involve killing some of them if they rebel or etc--he may realise the contradiction between the two things. I would also like to remind you that the British army did not have a policy of killing all of the savages, either. (I am assuming what you say is true-I do not know of its accuracy)
As for Americans, I have no idea what Manifest Destiny. But I think that once more, the same argument I proposed in the previous paragraph applies here in an analogous manner.
AS to your last argument quoted, I think history shows differently.
[quote]Give me a break, a terrorist doesn't blow himself up just because a house was demolished, its the plethora of ACTS of destruction going around in Gaza and the West Bank which fuels the hatred of these people to blow themselves up.
(the last part of your statement I will respond to later)
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05-12-2003 05:52
.
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I love the fact that you put a few hundred men (and a few women) in a room, and ask them to run a country, and even they resort to acting like little children. Conforting to know 
I love the debate, but surely the heckling isn't a good idea? Add the baiting done by the opposition, and the planted questions from Labour's side 
It could be a lot better.
**** **** **** **** Opps 
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