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alexman
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Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
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The problem:
With communication trading moved to Printing Press, the production of a few early exploring ships to make contacts with neighboring civilizations can pay handsome dividends in terms of technological advancement. The problem is that the AI doesn't fully understand the power of naval exploration, and doesn't build Curraghs until it has reached an advanced point in its military and territorial expansion. Most of the time, this point occurs well after Curraghs have become obsolete.
Another problem with the AI's early naval exploration is that it does not perform any suicide exploration missions, not even seafaring AI civilizations that get a reduced sinking probability. The risk of a few sunken galleys is a small price to pay for the potential reward of a trading monopoly with an entire continent.
Possible Solutions:
Either the AI needs to build more early ships, or early ships need to be weakened, as they help the human but not the AI. The AI cannot be made to perform suicide runs, so the only solution is to make such missions more costly for the human. Specific proposals:
- Increase the cost of Curraghs to 20 shields.
- Increase the movement cost for Galleys and Curraghs in ocean to 2.
- Make Curraghs and Galleys 'wheeled', and remove the ability of wheeled units to enter ocean tiles.
- Add the ability for Curraghs to transport units. This makes the Curraghs more valuable in the eyes of the AI.
- Reduce movement of Curragh and make available only to Seafaring civs.
Please discuss, or provide ideas of your own. 
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donZappo
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I like the idea of not allowing curraghs and galleys to be able to travel in ocean squares. Although, this would seem to really gimp the seafaring trait as they would almost be guaranteed to miss out on the early continental contacts and that is a major perk of that trait. Maybe make only curraghs available to seafaring, but make the galleys wheeled? Would this actually make the seafaring too powerful on a given map? We would still have the problem that this would only be a human exploit as well.
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donZappo
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I've tried that before and notice that while the AI will build more curraghs, it still won't suicide them. I don't think it's enough to just get the AI to build them unless they go on these suicide runs with them. Heck, that's one of the main things that seafaring is built around.
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ducki
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I made this comment on another thread, but I forget where...
I don't suicide, either.
I do probe the promising parts of the sea/ocean, though, which the AI doesn't seem to do.
Edit: forgot to finish this point - if there was a way to make the AI explore the seas the way I do - no suicides, but probing forays into sea/ocean - that would be optimal, IMO.
I think that getting the AI to actually build them and explore with them is a good starting point on this one.
I do not like the idea of really gimping the Seafaring trait by making that extra movement point mostly useless.
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donZappo
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It seems like the main problem with naval exploration is that the humans are able to do it while the AI is not. Any discussion has to be based upon either allowing the AI to explore like the human, or forcing the human to explore like the AI. After looking things over in the editor and attempting a few things myself I don't believe that you can make the AI suicide their boats like the human does. I'm sure this has been attempted before, but I just had to find out for myself. Therefore, I have a couple different opinions on this subject to level the playing field.
If you accept from the start that the human is always going to use suicide curraghs/galleys no matter what the coast is in lost ships then I fail to see what the point is to even allowing the random sinking of ships in the ancient era. I'd like to find a way to preserve the feel of slow exploration while still giving the seafaring trait some real advantage during this time. What happens if you make it so that galleys and curraghs can travel in sea and ocean squares but make it so that sea squares take 2 movement and ocean squares take 3? Both the human and AI would now be able to explore the world if this was the case, but at a slower pace. The seafaring trait would still get a bonus moving throughout the ocean as curraghs can move twice through sea, and their galleys can move twice through ocean tiles whereas their non-seafaring counterparts are left moving at 1 move/turn. This is actually a pretty drastic change on the surface, but may result in a more balanced exploration stage while still allowing for a useful civ trait. The problem with this change is if you think that seafaring should have a monopoly on contacts from other continents then this will remove that bonus to this trait.
If you want to remove the intercontinental galleys/curraghs altogether then you're *really* putting a hurt on the seafaring trait and make it more of a "coastal" trait than anything. To make it so that galleys/curraghs are wheeled and can't traverse the seas or oceans you have to find some way of making seafaring still useful. Maybe it would work if curraghs were seafaring only and could transport one unit. This would allow a bonus to early coastal settling or nearby island settling if the opportunity arrises. Or make the curragh a galley replacement that would be able to travel through sea squares, but not ocean squares. There are often times a lot of open sea passages that might make this pretty useful on a good number of maps.
Personally, I think that something has to be done to level this early exploration exploit by the human player. I prefer the last method that I mentioned with the curragh being a galley replacement for sea-faring civs that can travel on the sea, but this might be a bit unbalancing.
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ducki
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuie
If the AI isn't going to do suicide runs, then the human shouldn't be able to either. So I would definitely flag Oceans as "no wheeled" and put wheels on the Galley and Curragh.
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I still dislike this.
I still never suicide, only probing, looking to see if I can end my turn safely. I never go out more than half my moves, so I can return if there's no opening.
Since, even as a seafarer, the Curragh only has, what, 3 moves(?), you can't cross even one square of ocean, since there's at least 1 sea on either side, so that's not a bad change - wheels on the curragh, no-wheels in Ocean.
However, as a seafaring civ, Galleys get, I think, 4 moves, which means I could traverse a single square of ocean with 1 square of sea on each side. Give me the Lighthouse and you can add one more dangerous square in there.
The point is, I think this is a little too crippling, especially if you're not on a continents/pangea map.
What about :
-Ocean = no-wheels
-Wheels on curraghs
-Ocean and Sea = 100% sinkage rate if and only if you end your turn there with a galley or curragh
This kills the silly, long-distance oceanic suicide runs but still allows the small, feasible, 1-ocean-tile crossings - definitely would need testing. Heck, I'm not even sure that 100% sinkage is moddable.
If this isn't doable and we have to kill all oceanic crossings, even just 1 square oceans, I think seafaring civs need a bigger boost - maybe 1 extra shield in coastal towns or a seafaring-only tech that lets them build a galley, or starting with a galley outright, like Exp civs start with a scout.
I don't think seafaring civs should have a "monopoly" on contacts, just a "window of advantage". 1 extra move is useless if all crossings are banned, but as unbalancing as many feel Agriculture is if the AI doesn't take advantage of it.
(As a side note, Seafaring+GLighthouse rocks, and I don't suicide!)
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Risa
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Another thought: Make Curragh cost 1 population, so that it's very or even too expensive to suiciding explore.
Haven't test it yet, but I hope it may help.
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ducki
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I'd probably build one, depending on the map, and the situation. Especially if I end up all alone on a small continent, or playing 'pelago, or if I've got great growth and it won't slow me down.
Could it be given the "Join City" flag so that when you're done you can reclaim the pop?
That said, I'd rather look at the movement solutions first.
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kwpulliam1973
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The Seafaring cultural trait seems to be based upon the many cultures that were water or water transport based from thier pre-history. In these cases, we are not generally talking about Oceangoing vessels - rather rafts, dingy's and small sailing craft. (again ignoring the 2-4 instances of suicide runs in real history which succeeded)
I vote, make Curraughs wheeled, with no wheeled in ocean tiles. - This allows coast and sea tiles to be used. (sea tiles remain dangerous)
I also vote that galleys not be made wheeled, but if possible should expend 2 MP per ocean tile (Alexmans suggestions implied this was doable on a per unit basis - I'm at work and can't confirm for myself). - This allows a Seafaring with Lighthouse galley to move 3 + 1 + 1 = 5 MP, and safely cross a single tile of ocean beginning and ending on a coast tile.
Coast to Sea = 1
Sea to Ocean = 2
Ocean to Sea = 1
Sea to Coast = 1
Total = 5
I also vote to add transport capability to the Curraugh of 1 unit. I have seen reports on these boards that this change does indeed cause the AI to build and use them.
Thanks for Listening
Kevin P.
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donZappo
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But will allowing curraghs to carry one unit just make the AI more likely to build them, or will it actually use them to settle like the human would? I like the idea of restricting ocean so that curraghs can't use it at all, but then curraghs would need to be able to be used to settle nearby islands. I'll check this out as soon as I get home and see if the AI loads up settlers or not. So my proposed changes at this moment are:
Curraghs - seafaring only, 1 unit loading capacity, no ocean travel
Galleys - No ocean travel unless the great lighthouse is built (I'm wondering if this is even possible).
This would make the curragh essentially a early galley, but that would still be useful for seafaring overall. I just don't like any results that allow the human to suicide for contacts when the AI will never do such a thing.
I agree with ducki in regards to the probing as that is what I do myself. And I know that if the AI can make a crossing, that they will in fact make the crossing. I wish you could make the 100% sink rate possible as this would be a good solution to the problem so then the AI and the human would use the units the same way. I don't like the idea of making curraghs cost a population point. This would make them more valuable, but I just don't like the "feel" of such a change.
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donZappo
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After my initial tests it appears that the AI will not use curraghs to transport settlers unless it can take an escort with them. That means that we'd either have to let curraghs carry 2 units, or fundamentally change the settler so that it could defend itself similar to Civ 1. I don't know if it would be possible to get the AI to use the curraghs for settling without a major change to the fundamentals of the game. If you make curraghs able to carry 2 units, then they're just cheap galleys. If you gimp their movement to not be as effective, you remove the curragh-as-scout function and make the unit profoundly different. If you change the settler to be 0/1/1 so that it could defend itself (and maybe entice the AI to let them go unescorted), this strikes me as being outside the spirit of the AU. Plus, I don't like the idea of using it to only transport "foot units" as I don't think that military angle is the intent of the seafaring trait or this early unit. I guess something like this could work for Naval Exploration:
Give Curraghs the load flag (this makes the AI build them and use them)
Don't let the Curraghs traverse ocean squares
Make the curragh seafaring only
This would make it a true seafaring-exploration unit similar to the land-based scout for expansionist. Not as useful as it is in its current form, but something has to be done to not give the human player a major exploit.
Last edited by donZappo on 03-12-2003 at 07:46
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Fosse
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U.S.A.
Mar 2002
time: 23:32
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I'd like to see the AI build and use curraghs without having to add unit transport ability (what about missle transport, or an air mission range, or some other flag that the unit can't actually use?).
Humans should NOT be able to enter the oceans with curraghs, and oceans SHOULD cost a galley more to enter.
I don't want to see settlers or military units being on curraghs.
I disagree that this change is damaging enough to the seafaring trait to not implement it. The extra move point carries through the whole game, remember, not just for curraghs. If people really want seafarers to be able to enter oceans, why not make another unit with the same name, buildable only by seafarers, that doesn't have wheels? Compromise.
And just for the sake of the argument, what is the highest sinking percentage, if not 100%? A 95% sink rate would make me think more than twice!
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donZappo
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If you just give it the load flag then it makes the AI think they're more valuable even when they're not. It will build the curraghs and have them sail around just like they were galleys. I think this discussion is boiling down to what the true purpose of seafaring should be in the game. Is it for monopolizing contacts? Settling island chains early on? Or is just a boon to early coastal exploration with the added bonus of having ships that are slightly faster throughout the game? +1 movement matters a lot more early on than it does in the industrial era. What should the true purpose of this +1 movement be?
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:32
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This one's a tough nut to crack -- principally, IMHO, because AU tactics with naval units and human tactics are so different. My view of the implementation of "sinking chances" is that it was a deliberate design decision by the designers -- humans could risk the high seas but the AI would not -- in other words, early naval exploration was deliberately skewed to favor the human. Unless I'm missing something, there's nothing we can do to alleviate the disparity in power between human and AI with respect to "suicide ships."
It would be great if we could stimulate AI use of curraghs to make early contact along the coasts, but a proposal to nerf the human ability to risk sinking for a chance at contact seems to me to come down to trading a legitimate design decision (even if only made because it was too challenging to code intelligent suicide runs) for a more even playing field between human and AI. If we choose the "even playing field" approach, I suspect there will need to be discussions about some dramatic changes to artillery / bombard units, and particularly to lethal bombard of late game units such as bombers.
FWIW, I'd rather not completely nerf the inherent human advantage with opting for suicide runs (i.e., not eliminate ocean travel for curraghs), but my initial impressions of the seafaring trait's lowered sinking chances and increased movement allowance radically amplifies the power of the suicide option in the players bag of tricks. I only played the past AU mod with increased sea and ocean movement costs once or twice - not enough to form an opinion - but the lowered mobility didn't strike me as radically altering the gameplay intended by the original design.
Catt
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dexters
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Vancouver, Canada
Nov 2001
time: 05:32
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Abit OT, but semi related...
I think the early naval AI needs to be tweaked a little. I've said this many times, but pre Frigates and Galleons, AI civs remain lethargic builders of navies. And there are a lot of missed opportunities in the first hundred of so turns where the AI has one galley landing 2 units per turn.
This is contrasted with the sheer madness that happens when it hits modern ages and even in Monarchy difficulty, you have AIs in standard maps building 20+ destroyers and assorted specialty ships like BB and Carriers. Heck, that's the size of my navy in LARGE-HUGE maps back in the PTW days, and that's when I'm well ahead and can afford to crank those ships out for my own vanity since I'm such a naval fan.
This may have something to do with the Escort-Transport pairing that triggers something in the AI. A solution, not so much for AU but perhaps for a bug fix is to randomly attach an Escort flag to galleys and caravels. Kind of like how some units, like Infantry can be classified as O or D by the AI. This may help solve the problem of lack of AI shipping.
Last edited by dexters on 03-12-2003 at 12:51
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Catt
...a proposal to nerf the human ability to risk sinking for a chance at contact seems to me to come down to trading a legitimate design decision (even if only made because it was too challenging to code intelligent suicide runs) for a more even playing field between human and AI.
Catt |
Catt - forgive me here if I am misunderstanding the role of AU (I am new to it, and thus should perhaps be struck down for daring to question a vet Strat Forumer like you!), but is that not the purpose? To enhance the AI's chances with as small changes as possible. We both (and likely ALL) agree the human suicide ship tactics can be a huge imbalance, and this makes it worthy of attempting a fix. If the human loses this uncompensated advantage, then good!
Or does AU also have implicit in it's aims the need to obey the designers' decisions? If so, then we should be questioning the validity of changing ANYthing that isn;t clearly a bug.
To me, even though we cannot ensure the AI uses Curraghs to transport settlers, and giving Curraghs two-unit carry ability is too much, restricting Curraghs to coast squares and giving them a 1-unit carry ability is enough for me. The human's huge suicide advantage is gone, and there is a small compensating ability in place. And how many players will really use Curraghs to settle more than one or two city sites before MapMaking comes around anyway? Humans will want escorts for their settlers as well, keeping the attraction to Galleys.
That said, perhaps we should just plain out and out restrict Curraghs to coast and test it at that. Simple, easy and such a small change.
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Catt - forgive me here if I am misunderstanding the role of AU (I am new to it, and thus should perhaps be struck down for daring to question a vet Strat Forumer like you!), but is that not the purpose? To enhance the AI's chances with as small changes as possible. We both (and likely ALL) agree the human suicide ship tactics can be a huge imbalance, and this makes it worthy of attempting a fix. If the human loses this uncompensated advantage, then good!
Or does AU also have implicit in it's aims the need to obey the designers' decisions? If so, then we should be questioning the validity of changing ANYthing that isn;t clearly a bug. |
No forgiveness needed - the great thing about AU is that everyone's opinions carry equal weight (except maybe for the new uber-panel  ).
From the AU MOd thread started by alexman:
quote:
Most modifications incorporated by the AU mod are a compromise between a) improving the AI, b) presenting the player with more options, and c) changing as little as possible. The level of this compromise is a delicate and subjective decision, so each proposed change is discussed by the Apolyton University community before it is implemented. |
As you participate in more AU debates about prospective changes, I think you'll find that there is usually inherent tension between (i) making changes to improve the AI / weaken the player's tactics, and (ii) not changing the game in ways which eliminate or severely undercut tactics and strategies present in the stock game. If we only tried to improve the AI / weaken the human, we would need to make wholesale changes in many facets of the game, effectviely creating a "new game." If we only tried to change as little as possible, the AU Mod wouldn't be terribly effective at creating a more engaging game. Proposals, debates, game testing, and ultimately majority opinion will find the right balance between these competing goals.
My opinion on the curragh was that completely barring it from traveling in certain terrains would push too far towards the "weaken human" end of the spectrum (and deviate from stock rules by a fair amount) without a corresponding equal benefit of improving the AI / human balance, and that if a change was needed then perhaps increasing movement costs is a better middle ground. My view is that if we want to eliminate ocean travel for curraghs, wouldn't the same arguments apply equally well (or nearly so) to making a similar change to galleys and caravels?
As alexman points out in the opening post, there are two distinct potential "problems" to be addressed by the new presence of the curragh: (1) AI's failure to use them for routine scouting around coastlines; and (2) AI's failure to use them to suicide. I might have taken this off on a bit of a tangent by directing my arguments too directly to the suicide run issue -- if we could change AI behavior with problem 1 (sounds like this looks to be very tough), I think problem 2 is a much less important issue. Thing is it looks like we don't have a solution for improving problem 1, meaning all solutions are coming down to addressing problem 2 -- and problem 2, IMHO, is not limited to curraghs.
Your opinon may of course differ .
Catt
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donZappo
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Alright, I just ran a couple more tests to experiment with a couple of things. I made sea cost 3 movement points, and ocean 4 movement points to cross. I tried to cross a stretch of 2 sea tiles and one ocean tile to simulate what I view as the average minimum oceanic crossing. I sent 10 sea-faring curraghs, and 20 non-seafaring curraghs across this for comparison. I got the following results:
Seafaring: 6.3/10 ships lost per crossing (100% loss 2 times after the third move)
Non-Seafaring: 17.1/20 ships lost per crossing (100% loss 2 times, once after the second move!)
The reason I found this so enlightening was that it seems to present a situation where strategy is still preserved for the human while still providing a benefit to the seafaring civilizations and makes sure that The Great Lighthouse is still useful. In this situation, the non-seafaring human can still suicide their ships if they want to try for contacts, albeit at a large risk of resources. The seafaring human can suicide a bit faster (2 movements through sea squares) and has a reduced risk of sinking. Granted, the human is still the only one that will suicide their ships, but you could just view the AI as a "conservative" civilization if that helps to explain things. Heck, in a majority of cases I would probably turn into a conservative player with these values, but there would still be times that I would send a suicide ship out -- especially if I'm seafaring.
Additionally, upon constructing of The Great Lighthouse seafaring civs would now get 2 movements through ocean squares and non-seafaring would get 2 movements through sea squares. Both of those speed increases would come with the normal ability to not sink in sea squares making exploration/suiciding an easier alternative without making it overpowered.
I really like the feel of this test and think it falls firmly under the category of "presenting more strategic desicions to the human player" by causing the human to stop and think before they send the ships into the great unknown. Also, there would still be situations in which the AI could still cross small bodies of water safely, especially if they build the Lighthouse. Since this would nerf the seafaring trait a little, it could be balanced out by making the curragh a seafaring only unit. I don't know if that would fall outside the scope of the AU. It is a change that I personally would really like to see.
So, my proposed changes are:
Curragh - Seafaring only, maybe no movement allowed in ocean (or sea, even)
Sea - 3 movement/square
Ocean - 4 movement/square
I would also like to see the curragh be able to carry 2 units so that the human and AI could use it for early coastal and close island settling. After testing this last point a bit, I don't think that it is overpowered at all as any sizeable naval invasion probably would have to wait until the time Map Making is researched. By the way, the 2 unit transport is necessary to get the AI to load settlers on the curraghs.
These suggested changes could be debated a bit to try to iron out specific numbers for movement penalties, but I ask you to seriously consider this change as it does have a remarkably good feel to it when put into practice. As least I think so. 
EDIT: Of course the later units could just be flagged to ignore sea and ocean movement penalties so they wouldn't be slowed down by these changes.
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02-12-2003 02:46
). To balance this I would add a 1-troop carrying capability for Curraghs. They should be early transports and coast-hugging explorers. This reflects their RL use through history (and the promotion of trade that they formed a part of comes indirectly from their location of trading partners with harbours along coastlines) and keep the forum of oceanic navigation where it belongs - with the Caravel and later.
, but highly unlikely -- it's been around since the first release, and is well known to the Firaxis AI programmer.
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