02-12-2003 21:30									#31
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DinoDoc, I guess you were wrong about it .

It pisses me off that we even try to be nice about it. If there are countries that don't want to go with it, then we shouldn't go either. It's like this, when the next Chernobyl happens, and our nature starts dying, well we can all be happy about it 'well at least it wasn't one of ours!'. Big deal! We should just go with the program and continue business as usual. Though we are just building new reactor, so that's a good thing. Of course the hippies were against it saying that there are alternative power sources, like we could hire million chinese people working on bicycles hooked to generators. Yeah way to go hippies. Well some day power ends when the chinese are tired of cycling, and they can't write their feisty posts to their commie forums where they describe the best ways to make home wine, grow lenin style beards and where to get the latest hemp shirts, or what commune holds the next orgies in the name of collectivness and awareness. Yeah.. I'm ok with it, I mean they can continue living in those horrible houses with 400 in them and no heating or electrics, and sing party songs and praise Marx, what ever gets them the buzz, but if it means I can't have live like I want, then it's time for buttkicking action. Kick the hippies.

	02-12-2003 21:32									#32
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We need more Europeans like Pekka.

	02-12-2003 21:36									#33
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quote: Originally posted by rah No insult intended. There are a few real nice areas in Tennesse. There're a few nice areas in Mississippi too, it's just that they're harder to find.

I found several in both, with little time and effort. Just on a 6 day college scouting expidition through the south.

	02-12-2003 21:38									#34
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Some interesting stuff.

If the US and Russia were to completely disappear tommorrow, how much would that advance what Kyoto calls for?

less then half.
http://www.sepp.org/leipzig.html

Now thats even assuming that the science the Treaty was based on wasn't flawed, and that evil Americans like myself are also responsible for global warming on Mars,etc.

	02-12-2003 21:42									#35
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT We need more Europeans like Pekka.

Europe has been exporting its more independent minded citizens for centuries. Where do you think all those Americans, Australians, etc. come from!

(the trouble is what we are left with - all those aspiring bureaucrats)

In the UK new cars have to be designed to meet emissions standards and are tested annually once they are 3 years old. It is also getting increasingly expensive to scrap cars here so many get abandoned and the local authorities have to clear up - which is very expensive.

They don't test motorcycles yet. Hooray!

	02-12-2003 21:50									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha Some interesting stuff. If the US and Russia were to completely disappear tommorrow, how much would that advance what Kyoto calls for? less then half. http://www.sepp.org/leipzig.html Now thats even assuming that the science the Treaty was based on wasn't flawed, and that evil Americans like myself are also responsible for global warming on Mars,etc.

interesting link

Take a look at the signees. They're not in my field, but it appears to include a number of very senior scientists.

	02-12-2003 21:51									#37
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CerberusIV, I think we have exactly the same model. I don't mind it that much though.. It's good that they can remove some of the safety hazard cars away from the traffic every now and then, because sometimes the car owners don't realize how crappy their car is, and that it's about to explode to pieces in matter of days. That's what you get when no one can afford cars made after mid 90s.

	02-12-2003 21:52									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Just on a 6 day college scouting expidition through the south.

I thought the same about the University of Illinois (Champaign Urbana) when I visited. But after attending I had a chance to leave the city proper area and visit the surrounding communities. I wouldn't have been surprised to stumble into a KKK meeting. My hair was a touch long and if I hadn't been travelling with my roomate, (who was the son of one of the local preachers) I'm sure I would have been strung up to the nearest tree just for looking almost like a hippie.

	02-12-2003 21:58									#39
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quote: wasn't aware that Bush was in charge of Russia too.

You know what I mean. It was Bush who started the snowball effect.

quote: Just more proof that it was a flawed treaty.

It wasnt flawed until you ruined it. Dont act like it isnt in the best intrest of you, and your kids too to grow even in a little more clean world.

quote: I didn't know they had Taliban in Finland?

I'm not aware of them here either, I'm convinced tho that america and russia supposedly have been hijacked by big mean corporations. For your information our democracy is a little more advanced than the 2 party police state you live in.

quote: Just a question. Do other countries have regularly scheduled mandatory car emission tests like the US? Where if the car fails you must have it fixed or face a license suspension. Or is this just a US thing.

We have and I hope other countries have as well. Tell me you didnt seriously thought it was just a US thing

quote: Why would Russia support a treaty that doesn't help it in anyway? I am surprised it signed it in the first place.

Doesnt help it in anyway? WTF? I thought you were somekind of leftist? Left parties tend to care about the good of the people not just the big factories. You certainly dont seem to care whether an average russian dies in the age of 45 to one of the numerous lung-related diseases so common there. Off course it is in the Russian intrests, the problem just is that neither the US or the Russian government actuallu care about the good for their people. Thats wy I call them morally corrupt.

quote: For the feel good reasons the EU did I imagine?

I LOVE LIVING. Especially a healthy and good life with as little emissions as possible.

quote: Not to mention our 'free public transportation' is maybe the most expensive I've ever seen travelling the world.. oh well.. but that's just lies! LIES I TELL YOU! Everything here is so good.. beer is cheap and service is good

quote: So as far as emissions go, I can trust you my American friends, that in Europe, or at least in most parts, or at least in northern parts we are very uptight and anal about it. I mean, next thing I know I have to file a report if I fart outdoors and pay fines for destroying the ozone crap. I hate it anyway, I wish we'd kill the big O so we could just stop talking about it. We should just attack the border control anyway, I want my cars in regular prices, not in northern european prices where you are punished for owning a car. And again punished if you drive it. Because that makes you a polluter and a rich mofo anyway. I say to every car owner.. let's take these hypocrite commies back to where they belong (6 feet under) and rise victorious to our NEW and GLORIOUS future wher WE decide what we can do with our money and cars. What's the point of working anyway, if I can't buy cars with it. It's not supposed to be treated as luxury, it's just a freaking car! KILL THE TRAITORS!

quote: It pisses me off that we even try to be nice about it. If there are countries that don't want to go with it, then we shouldn't go either. It's like this, when the next Chernobyl happens, and our nature starts dying, well we can all be happy about it 'well at least it wasn't one of ours!'. Big deal! We should just go with the program and continue business as usual. Though we are just building new reactor, so that's a good thing. Of course the hippies were against it saying that there are alternative power sources, like we could hire million chinese people working on bicycles hooked to generators. Yeah way to go hippies. Well some day power ends when the chinese are tired of cycling, and they can't write their feisty posts to their commie forums where they describe the best ways to make home wine, grow lenin style beards and where to get the latest hemp shirts, or what commune holds the next orgies in the name of collectivness and awareness. Yeah.. I'm ok with it, I mean they can continue living in those horrible houses with 400 in them and no heating or electrics, and sing party songs and praise Marx, what ever gets them the buzz, but if it means I can't have live like I want, then it's time for buttkicking action. Kick the hippies.

Why are you so angry about? Why do have to jack my thread? Why do you blame communists for about everything? Why do you act like a little child wo cant have better toy than all the rest? If you want cheap beer, cheap gas and basicly cheap everything go to Russia. Now you're acting like an idiot.

	02-12-2003 22:09									#40
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A treaty is signed for one of two reasons only.
1. At gunpoint. (not the case here)
2. Or when all parties concerned believe it's in their best self interest.

It's the failure of the diplomats when they don't put forth an agreement that countries will sign, and more importantly, live up to afterwards. That was obviously the case with this treaty proving it was flawed.

I'm making no claims to right or wrong, just flawed. No unsigned treaty is worth anything.

	02-12-2003 22:27									#41
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I'm not angry. I'm jsut being loud about it. I didn't start the car discussion and if I'm the only one getting blamed for threadjacking, then I think it's wrong.

Why do you blame Americans for everything?

Because the toys suck. If every kid is playing with rocks, I guess it's about time someone stood up and said 'hey this rock sucks'.

I might be acting like an idiot, but you're barking the wrong tree.

	02-12-2003 22:31									#42
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The threadjack is mine. (and it's not much of one since it is quite related) And yes, you're entitled to your opinion.

	02-12-2003 22:35									#43
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Rah,
It's the failure of the human nature, that flaws the deal - not diplomats (or are they humans too?)

I think the Kyoto treaty was somewhat similar to communism - a very good idea which doesn't work because of greed of men.

	02-12-2003 22:39									#44
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Amen Aaglo.

And now that we have all realisid this we might just get on to our SUVs and pollute like never before

Who needs any regulation?
[chorus] Comminists Do!

Let us feast now, and die tomorrow
What do you want to pollute today?

Last edited by laurentius on 02-12-2003 at 22:47

	02-12-2003 22:41									#45
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I just don't happen to see Kyoto as being a very good response to environmental threats

it is very costly, and there are much worse things going on against the environment

Jon Miller

	02-12-2003 22:42									#46
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quote: I'm not aware of them here either, I'm convinced tho that america and russia supposedly have been hijacked by big mean corporations. For your information our democracy is a little more advanced than the 2 party police state you live in.

	02-12-2003 22:45									#47
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quote: Originally posted by rah Just a question. Do other countries have regularly scheduled mandatory car emission tests like the US? Where if the car fails you must have it fixed or face a license suspension. Or is this just a US thing.

Yes, part of the standard yearly MOT in the UK, you don't get a license suspension but if a car fails it's MOT you can't legally drive it. Driving a car without MOT could lead you to license suspension/fine etc.

	02-12-2003 22:45									#48
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You blame greed? Are you both troglodytes or something, wishing we still in the dark ages? If anything blame technological advancements, but greed?

Do you not like living in a house compared to a cave, reading by electric lights instead of candles, having warmth to fight of the cold, being able to travel 1000s of miles within a day, amongst all the other countless luxuries you have?

It really sickens me when I see a "hippie" in manufactured clothes skimming a paper at a Starbucks just before they get in their car to go up to Wilits to protest, then head back to their manufactured home, flip on a light switch eat some soup from a can and turn in under the roar of an electric furnace...

The sight of the future is not in the hands of conservation, but in the trust of innovation.

	02-12-2003 22:46									#49
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I think that other co9untries have been hijacked more than the US

not that the US isn't mostly controled by corps

it is just that we have at least the power to do something democratic about it

JOn Miller
(the reason I don't support violent revolution)

	02-12-2003 22:53									#50
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It's a matter of prescience
No, not the science fiction kind
It's all about ignorance,
And greed, and miracles for the blind
The media parading disjointed politics
Founded on petrochemical plunder
And we're its hostages

If you stand to reason
You're in the game
The rules might be elusive
But our pieces are the same
And you know if one goes down we all go down as well
The balance is precarious as anyone can tell
This world's going to hell

Don't allow
This mythologic hopeful monster to exact its price
Kyoto now!
We can't do nothing and think someone else will make it right

You might not think it matters now
But what if you are wrong
You might not think there's any wisdom in a f***ed up punk rock song
But the way it is
Cannot persist for long
A brutal sun is rising on a sick horizon

It's in the way
We live our lives
Exactly like the double-edge of a cold familiar knife
And supremacy weighs heavy on the day
It's never really what you own but what you threw away
And how much did you pay?

Don't allow
This mythologic hopeful monster to exact its price
Kyoto now!
We can't do nothing and think someone else will make it right

In your dreams
You saw a steady state; a bounty for eternity
Silent screams
But now the wisdom that sustains us is in full retreat

Don't allow
This mythologic hopeful monster isn't worth the risk
Kyoto now!
We can't have vision for the future if it can't be fixed
Alien
We need a fresh and new religion to run our lives
Hand in hand
The arid torpor of inaction will be our demise

Oh, Kyoto now!

	02-12-2003 23:12									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Japher You blame greed? Are you both troglodytes or something, wishing we still in the dark ages? If anything blame technological advancements, but greed? Do you not like living in a house compared to a cave, reading by electric lights instead of candles, having warmth to fight of the cold, being able to travel 1000s of miles within a day, amongst all the other countless luxuries you have? It really sickens me when I see a "hippie" in manufactured clothes skimming a paper at a Starbucks just before they get in their car to go up to Wilits to protest, then head back to their manufactured home, flip on a light switch eat some soup from a can and turn in under the roar of an electric furnace... The sight of the future is not in the hands of conservation, but in the trust of innovation.

Answer to the point: Yes, greed.
The russian president's assistant said it clearly:"The Kyoto Protocol places significant limitations on the economic growth of Russia", the key word here being economic. Bush said the similar things when they (bush administration) decided, that USA will not sing that treaty.

Economic growth my ass. I'd rather have poor economy than poor atmosphere.

The other comments in your post (something about cavemen)... I will not lower myself to your level

	02-12-2003 23:13									#52
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quote: Originally posted by rah A treaty is signed for one of two reasons only. 1. At gunpoint. (not the case here) 2. Or when all parties concerned believe it's in their best self interest. It's the failure of the diplomats when they don't put forth an agreement that countries will sign, and more importantly, live up to afterwards. That was obviously the case with this treaty proving it was flawed. I'm making no claims to right or wrong, just flawed. No unsigned treaty is worth anything.

Obviously its flawed because 2 of the biggest polluters in the world refused to ratify it.

Best intrest..ok lets think about this for a while. My thesis is that governments are here primarly to serve the people not the corporations. People are not fuelling the corporations but rather vice versa. Therefore a goverment that hasnt got this priority in order is flawed. That is if its legitimate or not. If its not it is up to the people to perform a regime change. I recommend the slogan "We, the people"

So what we have here is roughly two types of governments, those that got this legitimative priority in order, and those that dont. USA and Russia obviously dont.

	02-12-2003 23:16									#53
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I don't think Kyoto ever had the majority support of the people of the US. Because of this, it was never going to be ratified.

	02-12-2003 23:34									#54
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Obviously its flawed because 2 of the biggest polluters in the world refused to ratify it.

Now you've got it. Only a blind man would think that the US would ratify in it's current form. So the result is nada. True diplomats would have modified it to something that even the US would have signed. You might argue that a treaty that did that wouldn't really solve the problem, which I might have to agree with. (I'm one of those that believe that in it's current form it wouldn't solve the problem, but you have to start somewhere)

But it would have been better than a sharp stick in the eye.

Definately a diplomatic failure.

	02-12-2003 23:41									#55
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Yes, but as the self-proclaimed model democracy the USA should give other, less democratic countries like Russia, an example on how to take responsibility for your own actions, including pollution.

	02-12-2003 23:47									#56
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..and let others take advantage Laurentius?

Oh yeah, just noticed your location..

	02-12-2003 23:51									#57
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And what made kyoto the definative solution?

There are many pollution control initiatives currently happening in the US. The water and air is much cleaner than it was in the past in most places in the US. I agree that we could be doing more. But just because we don't agree with a treaty doesn't mean nothing is being done.

	03-12-2003 00:02									#58
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Yeah but the point is that these are not just domestic issues. Winds blow the smog and emissions to other countries etc. This is why it is a global issue that demands global action.

The Kyoto wasnt as bad as the companies and media wants you to belive. It surely was not the definative solution either, but it would have been a step forward.

	03-12-2003 00:07									#59
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If the treaty had been really global in the first place — rather than targeting certain parts of the planet while letting other parts not be bound by it either now or in the future — it might have helped win support.

India and China, et al., don't quite account for a gigantic slice of the pollution pie chart just yet. In time, they will match and surpass the Western world, IMO, and the impression I had of Kyoto is that they wouldn't have been bound to its terms unless they signed on the dotted line. And what's to make them sign in the future? What impetus would there be? Good will on their part?

Gatekeeper

	03-12-2003 00:15									#60
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I hoped US would have signed the Kyoto thing .. but it didn't happen so it didn't happen.

We didn't sign treaty banning landmines. I'm glad we didn't. I guess half of the countries think we are some kind of crazy war people then. Let them think that I couldn't care less, they are VITAL to our defense and if someone has troubles understanding it, they can go eat poop.

And it surely is global issue. But it doesn't mean we are blowing land mines all over the world as we speak. But we shouldn't sign the treaty either. It doesn't fit to us. We need to have the right to blow up 400 000 pair of legs if it comes down to that. It's our business and no one has anything to it.

Like in the US.. like I said, I wished they would have signed the treaty but they didn't. It's their business. It's global issue for sure, but it's not like they aren't doing anything about it.

Global treaty, nations own business.