03-12-2003 14:06									#91
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Well I guess you dont really care that your neighbourgs have to pick the bill for your ignorance

	03-12-2003 14:17									#92
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quote: Originally posted by rah All of corporate America is not run by people that steal.

I'm not saying that. The thing just is that they shouldnt have too much influence over enviromental or "soft" issues, because they are not working for the intrest of the people, not even their own workers, but for the intrest of the shareholders, the company or just themselves.

quote: You take a handfull of stories that you've seen and paint them all dirty. You have quite the distorted outlook.

Who needs zillion stories when the 100 are big enough already. You talk your one of the executives golfing all day

	03-12-2003 14:29									#93
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quote: Originally posted by rah Yes, the minimum security country club prisons are full of white collar criminals. But feel free to ignore simple things like FACTS.

The FACT is that the US pulled out of the treaty because of economical reasons. The fact is that the Bush administration just doesnt respect any international treaty to be made or that have been made decades ago.

It is like a classroom. The US is like the best pupil that turns into puberty, becoming a big fat man who can beat anybody. He knows this. So one day he simply says that he is not going to play by the rules anymore. So what happens then? The good guys are a little ashamed and confused. But the other airheads(russia) follow the big fat guys example. At the end nobody respects the rules anymore and in this example eventually the whole class is going to be shipped to an island and to start a game called Battle Royale.

	03-12-2003 14:33									#94
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Well I guess you dont really care that your neighbourgs have to pick the bill for your ignorance

Even from the ecological point of view, there are more pressing and realistic issues to deal with. The Kyoto issue is too far-fetched and costy.

	03-12-2003 15:55									#95
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo Ogie, they who know better should tell the third world. In fact, they should act as an example. And somebody has to take the first step. It's a very poor excuse saying "because nobody else does it, why should we". And in the end, it's the money that affects these decisions.

Come on get real. Multinationals will go where it makes the most sense to produce cheapest and this usually means where costs of transporting goods is offset by cheaper labor and less regulatory costs. It only encourages more productions in countries less likely to curb their pollution. Hence the treaty makes a global situation worse taking productions out of countries using a modicum of polllution control.

Has nothing to do with governments and yes everything to do with money.

	03-12-2003 16:22									#96
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quote: Russia pulls out of Kioto - What is the future of the Protocol?

DOA - Thank God!

	03-12-2003 16:33									#97
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Tennessee doesn't, for the record.

I remember having to get biyearly emissions tests in Tennessee as well as having to shell out $70 for registration every 2 years as well.

	03-12-2003 18:32									#98
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius It is like a classroom. The US is like the best pupil that turns into puberty, becoming a big fat man who can beat anybody.

Yes, quite disturbing outlook.

	03-12-2003 18:41									#99
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HAR HAR Mr.

	03-12-2003 18:59									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Do you not like living in a house compared to a cave, reading by electric lights instead of candles, having warmth to fight of the cold, being able to travel 1000s of miles within a day, amongst all the other countless luxuries you have?

Aside from the many miles thing...
Yes Greed is a constant, and that stuff sounds good, but it's not as unidimensional as you make it seem.
Perhaps not all of us want an SUV today and a flooded house tomorrrow.

quote: It really sickens me when I see a "hippie" in manufactured clothes skimming a paper at a Starbucks just before they get in their car to go up to Wilits to protest, then head back to their manufactured home, flip on a light switch eat some soup from a can and turn in under the roar of an electric furnace...

And you... watch all of this. Does this not make you a stalker?

quote: The sight of the future is not in the hands of conservation, but in the trust of innovation.

The Future ideally lies not with the spouting of propagandic bullshit (but practically is based on it )
EDIT: Stupid friggin smileys

	03-12-2003 19:09									#101
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius The FACT is that the US pulled out of the treaty because of economical reasons. The fact is that the Bush administration just doesnt respect any international treaty to be made or that have been made decades ago. It is like a classroom. The US is like the best pupil that turns into puberty, becoming a big fat man who can beat anybody. He knows this. So one day he simply says that he is not going to play by the rules anymore. So what happens then? The good guys are a little ashamed and confused. But the other airheads(russia) follow the big fat guys example. At the end nobody respects the rules anymore and in this example eventually the whole class is going to be shipped to an island and to start a game called Battle Royale.

no

we just do not do things that are not in our best interest

the US government thought so during Clinton's Administration, and thinks so now

I mean, it would benefit the world if the US gave all the nations of the world free money

but it sure wouldn't benefit the US any, and it would be right for us to not be a part of that international treaty

similiarly with Kyoto

Jon Miller

	03-12-2003 19:13									#102
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The problem is that the rest of the world thinks we should give them all free money, so your line of reasoning won't even register with them.

	03-12-2003 19:14									#103
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I wonder why the left only bashes "corporate America?" Don't corporations everywhere look out for the interests of their stockholders over the interests of the public at large?

As for corruption, according to our Chinese posters here, corruption in China is real and is a major problem. It barely exists in America and is not a major problem.

	03-12-2003 19:20									#104
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Yes, a couple of years ago, our company was bought out by an overseas corporation, and they've shown themselves to be equally, if not worse in terms of corporate greed and corruption. They've even stopped some of the recycling initiatives that were in place due to costs.

	04-12-2003 01:21									#105
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Once again the eco-left dreamers fail to understand real world consequences and expect treaties and government regulation to fix everything.

	04-12-2003 02:03									#106
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quote: Yes Greed is a constant, and that stuff sounds good, but it's not as unidimensional as you make it seem. Perhaps not all of us want an SUV today and a flooded house tomorrrow.

Your saying not everyone is greedy? Everyone wants a home and the comfort it brings, just no one is ready to accept the sacrifices that must be made to supply this to the world. Note: every one has needs, it is the level/quantity/quality of these needs that perpetuate greedy. Polution would exist regardless.

quote: And you... watch all of this. Does this not make you a stalker?

only when their cute... My wife is a hippy turned republican thanks to me. I have been to many protest, concerts, gathering, the like, where these peacenicks sit around and whine. I use to do the same thing until I wisened up one day and realized that we can have both and that I can contribute to that; comfort and safety, yet sitting around and doing nothing accomplishes nothing.

That's why I got a degree in Chemical Engineering with a specialization in Waste/waste water management. I study alt. energy sources, catalysist, watershed management, and environmental conservation. I also support the lumber industry and work and support manufacturing industries, why? Because these industries aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot and destroy what makes them money. EPA regulations are always increasing and fines are always pouring in (showing that they are poluting too much). Of which, many millions of dollars go into development, optimization, and renovation of old facilities and processes to prevent this pollution. Such things would happen or exist if these companies could not continue to pollute and make money.

quote: The Future ideally lies not with the spouting of propagandic bullshit (but practically is based on it )

Exactly, and that is why the Kyoto Treaty sucks, because it is based on propagandic bullshit. It stalls the problem, but does nothing to encourage the solution nor does is supply an outlet from which the solution can be found.

Necessity is NOT the mother of invention, competition is.

	04-12-2003 02:15									#107
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Aaah a fellow Chem E., good deal Japher.

	04-12-2003 02:54									#108
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quote: The FACT is that the US pulled out of the treaty because of economical reasons.

What kind of idiot thinks that having a better economy doesn't benefit the people?

	04-12-2003 04:37									#109
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The vice economy of Russia, Mukhamed Tsikhanov, has just denied that Russia has decided to say no to the Kyoto Treaty.

This contradicts what economic advisor to Putin, Andrej Illarinov said at a press meeting yesterday.

Tsikhanov says that no decision has in fact been reached yet. Putin is silent on the issue.

Well obviously something has happened, but it is not clear what it is.

	04-12-2003 04:42									#110
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius The FACT is that the US pulled out of the treaty because of economical reasons. The fact is that the Bush administration just doesnt respect any international treaty to be made or that have been made decades ago.

Why should the Bush administration respect a treaty the US Senate didn't ratify, and in fact passed a resolution stating that it wouldn't ratify it? This happened before Clinton signed the treaty.

I am thinking the question should be why the Clinton administration signed it in the first place, if he knew that.

	04-12-2003 06:50									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I wonder why the left only bashes "corporate America?" Don't corporations everywhere look out for the interests of their stockholders over the interests of the public at large?

I don't think they only bash corporate America, but the reason its the #1 target is because it is the most high profile category of business. Look at the top 100 largest companies/conglomerates/corporations/whatnot by asset or turnover and I'd bet that the majority are American or identifiable as predominantly American. As such "corporate America" is the poster boy of capitalistic greed. More than that though I think it leads leftist thinking people to believe capitalistic and corporate greed is a strong part of American values and culture.

Either that or leftists watched the film Wall Street too much.

	04-12-2003 07:10									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc The vice economy of Russia, Mukhamed Tsikhanov, has just denied that Russia has decided to say no to the Kyoto Treaty. This contradicts what economic advisor to Putin, Andrej Illarinov said at a press meeting yesterday. Tsikhanov says that no decision has in fact been reached yet. Putin is silent on the issue. Well obviously something has happened, but it is not clear what it is.

Apparently a bargaining is going on between the EU and Russia about the terms of Russia's admission into the WTO, and Russia is willing to trade Kyoto for softening of the EU position. Can you imagine, the evil EU demands that internal Russian prices on gas be raised 4 times. It seems they want to utterly destroy the Russian economy and bring even more misery on the Russian people.

	04-12-2003 07:51									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I don't think they only bash corporate America, but the reason its the #1 target is because it is the most high profile category of business. Look at the top 100 largest companies/conglomerates/corporations/whatnot by asset or turnover and I'd bet that the majority are American or identifiable as predominantly American. As such "corporate America" is the poster boy of capitalistic greed. More than that though I think it leads leftist thinking people to believe capitalistic and corporate greed is a strong part of American values and culture. Either that or leftists watched the film Wall Street too much.

Perhaps they also watched "Dallas," with JR Ewing given as the prototype corporate executive.

But, it is clear to me from reading posts here on Apolyton that leftists outside the US tend to think that US corporations run the Republican party and control the US government.

	04-12-2003 09:26									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But, it is clear to me from reading posts here on Apolyton that leftists outside the US tend to think that US corporations run the Republican party and control the US government.

Not neccesarily all corporations. Ted Turner and Bill Gates are left of the republicans, are they not. I think leftists generally believe that the oil business is closely tied to the republicans. Or more generally the 'old industry' boys are supporting the Republicans, while the 'new economy' boys are supporting the Democratic Party.

	04-12-2003 10:41									#115
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Tripledoc, I cannot speak for all corporations, but in my time I worked for four of the very largest, and was an executive in the last one I worked for. None of these supported any party. The last one I worked at had top executives from both parties.

Just because an upper level executive is a Republican or a Democrat, seldom do the "corporations" support any party because the executives tend to be from both parties and/or are independent. Further, direct corporate campaign contributions are illegal.

When an executive joins the government, he or she has to financially separate themselves from their former firms in a manner such that their actions cannot result in financial gain. When a member of the government leaves to join industry, he or she cannot be involved in any matter that could affect his former employment with the government.

Still, as we saw with the recent Boeing case where both the CFO and CEO resigned because they hired the very person in the Air Force who made the decision to lease rather than to buy certain aircraft from Boeing at costs greater than buying, corruption can occur. I hope all involved in that fiasco are severely punished.

	04-12-2003 10:46									#116
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo Ogie, they who know better should tell the third world. In fact, they should act as an example. And somebody has to take the first step. It's a very poor excuse saying "because nobody else does it, why should we". And in the end, it's the money that affects these decisions.

Yeah, the third world will just say "oh, look, the US and russia do it, we're going to screw over our developing economies and do it too!"

	04-12-2003 10:49									#117
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Enigma_Nova Yes Greed is a constant, and that stuff sounds good, but it's not as unidimensional as you make it seem. Perhaps not all of us want an SUV today and a flooded house tomorrrow.

If you don't want an SUV, don't get one. If you aren't greedy, that's your choice. Just don't compain about US being greedy and taking all the wealth

	04-12-2003 11:07									#118
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Yeah, the third world will just say "oh, look, the US and russia do it, we're going to screw over our developing economies and do it too!"

Better to have ruined economy than ruined atmosphere. After all, air is easier to breathe than money

	04-12-2003 11:13									#119
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I'm sure that's the view they'll take

	04-12-2003 11:14									#120
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They should