03-12-2003 00:40									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I don't think Kyoto ever had the majority support of the people of the US. Because of this, it was never going to be ratified.

The USA senate, in a non binding resolation, rejected its key provisions, 99 to 0, before it was even finalized. You think that would have given the negotiators a clue, but nooooo. Clinton never even submited it for ratification becasue it was DOA before it got here. He only signed it as a lying PR stunt. He lied to the rest of the world suggesting there was any hope for it in the USA.

	03-12-2003 01:41									#62
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Doesnt help it in anyway? WTF? I thought you were somekind of leftist? Left parties tend to care about the good of the people not just the big factories. You certainly dont seem to care whether an average russian dies in the age of 45 to one of the numerous lung-related diseases so common there. Off course it is in the Russian intrests, the problem just is that neither the US or the Russian government actuallu care about the good for their people. Thats wy I call them morally corrupt.

1) Kyoto deals with greenhouse gasses, not the ones that cause lung diseases.

2) Warming helps Russia in numerous ways. Russia will be among the greatest beneficiaries of warmer temperatures. It's agriculture will boom. So how does not signing the treaty hurt the people of Russia?

	03-12-2003 01:43									#63
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quote: My thesis is that governments are here primarly to serve the people not the corporations.

And corporations are comprised of, and get their "directions" from.... oh, yeah. People.

	03-12-2003 01:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: My thesis is that governments are here primarly to serve the people not the corporations. And corporations are comprised of, and get their "directions" from.... oh, yeah. People.

Yeah you are right even the two executives at the top who steal hundreds of millions in options and shares are...eventually humans

	03-12-2003 02:05									#65
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And of course all corporations survive with crooked executives - thrive even. Just ask Enron, Global Crossing, MCI/WorldCom, etc. Hell the only way you can survive with crooked executives is if the government wants you to - just ask Lockheed. Oh, yeah - they don't exist anymore either, other than a division of Martin-Marietta.

	03-12-2003 02:18									#66
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Ok, well tell me how many executives from those companies are in jail? My guess is none. And why are these things popping up all the time?

	03-12-2003 02:19									#67
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hopefully now Kioto won't get pregnant

Jon Miller

	03-12-2003 02:20									#68
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Finland could definitely need some warmings.

	03-12-2003 02:23									#69
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Yeah you are right even the two executives at the top who steal hundreds of millions in options and shares are...eventually humans

Your generalizations of the US are quite laughable.
All of corporate America is not run by people that steal.
You take a handfull of stories that you've seen and paint them all dirty. You have quite the distorted outlook.

	03-12-2003 02:29									#70
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quote: Originally posted by rah ... You take a handfull of stories that you've seen and paint them all dirty. You have quite the distorted outlook.

But what if that handful is responsible for all that Laurentius is talking about?

	03-12-2003 02:36									#71
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Yes, all of corporate america is run by the same two people (Or handfull) .

This isn't Finland.

	03-12-2003 02:38									#72
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo But what if that handful is responsible for all that Laurentius is talking about?

Is there something about Nokia you aren't telling us?

	03-12-2003 02:41									#73
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Leave Nokia out of this They are beautiful.

	03-12-2003 02:46									#74
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Ok, well tell me how many executives from those companies are in jail? My guess is none. And why are these things popping up all the time?

Your guess would be wrong, but god forbid you should look it up. I believe the first Enron conviction occurred within the past couple of months, and more are to come. Cases of high-level theft are hard to unravel and difficult to explain to (grand) juries, but they do get done. Hell, even Michael Milken got fined $1.2 billion, his firm got RICO'd (and another $1+ billion fine) and bankrupted, all on a mere 4 convictions involving a fraud that comparably, given the scale of Milkens legitimate businesses, was about the amount of the loose change you'll find underneath your sofa.

	03-12-2003 03:30									#75
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1) Big Corporations haven't hijacked America, they founded it.

2) In America, it IS the governments primary job to look after and foster the Big Corporations.

We call it Capitalism.

	03-12-2003 03:33									#76
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Yes, the minimum security country club prisons are full of white collar criminals. But feel free to ignore simple things like FACTS.

	03-12-2003 03:37									#77
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People interested in theory tend to disdain facts, Rah. Haven't you noticed?

	03-12-2003 03:50									#78
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A common affliction around here I guess.

	03-12-2003 03:54									#79
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quote: Do other countries have regularly scheduled mandatory car emission tests like the US?

Greece has it, we do it every year.

	03-12-2003 03:55									#80
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For every car or just those that have reached a certain age?

RAH
And you're a bit behind, this thread has been jacked a couple of times since we were talking about that.

	03-12-2003 04:19									#81
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I don't know, my car is old. However, the rest of the technical qualifications card which is checked every 3 years (in the big cities, cause in the rest of the country they check more frequently) is not required for vehicles under 6 years.

	03-12-2003 04:34									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I hoped US would have signed the Kyoto thing .. but it didn't happen so it didn't happen. We didn't sign treaty banning landmines. I'm glad we didn't. I guess half of the countries think we are some kind of crazy war people then. Let them think that I couldn't care less, they are VITAL to our defense and if someone has troubles understanding it, they can go eat poop. And it surely is global issue. But it doesn't mean we are blowing land mines all over the world as we speak. But we shouldn't sign the treaty either. It doesn't fit to us. We need to have the right to blow up 400 000 pair of legs if it comes down to that. It's our business and no one has anything to it. Like in the US.. like I said, I wished they would have signed the treaty but they didn't. It's their business. It's global issue for sure, but it's not like they aren't doing anything about it. Global treaty, nations own business.

This is a classic

	03-12-2003 04:40									#83
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Btw., we also have yearly "technical exams" for cars in Croatia. The procedure is an immense source of corruption and everyone would benefit if it was reformed, outsorced to foreign private companies, or something like that.

It is like this now, you can pass with a total wreck if you reach an agreement with the technician on duty, or you can fail the test with a new car if they feel like it.

	03-12-2003 05:54									#84
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: My thesis is that governments are here primarly to serve the people not the corporations. And corporations are comprised of, and get their "directions" from.... oh, yeah. People.

That's right. Everyone in a corporation has an equal voice and it's not just a bunch of inbred hicks who looks good in power suits running the show.

	03-12-2003 05:56									#85
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb 1) Big Corporations haven't hijacked America, they founded it. 2) In America, it IS the governments primary job to look after and foster the Big Corporations. We call it Capitalism.

Could Capitalism please bugger off and let Democracy run things?

	03-12-2003 06:19									#86
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quote: Everyone in a corporation has an equal voice and it's not just a bunch of inbred hicks who looks good in power suits running the show.

Fvck you.

	03-12-2003 06:26									#87
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I blame rah and his SUV for global warming.

	03-12-2003 08:36									#88
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And global warming would have been reduced how if ratified in US and Russia?

Meanwhile third world nations without a clue how to deal with environmental issues get a free pass and are encouraged through market forces to increase their pollution. Sounds like a winner treaty if I ever heard one.

	03-12-2003 11:05									#89
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Ogie,
they who know better should tell the third world. In fact, they should act as an example.

And somebody has to take the first step. It's a very poor excuse saying "because nobody else does it, why should we".

And in the end, it's the money that affects these decisions.

	03-12-2003 12:18									#90
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You guys seem to forget that Russia is not only one of the world's largest pollutors, but it is also the world's largest source of clean and fresh air. Perhaps this gives us the right to pollute a little bit more than other countries.

Anyhow, why should Russia support idealistic projects of the evil and in reality not so idealistic EU at the expense of its own economy? Now that the EU-Russian relations are strained on a number of issues, we are in no mood for that.