09-12-2003 03:39									#31
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I have only had one look at the game and it is not in front of me now. I do not know what their land consist of, but it seems that if Lego, GoW and GS get to the industrial age, it could come down to resources or the lack of them (if land is more or less the same as now).

So if that is correct, why would you want to roll the dice? If they do not get coal and can't trade for it or lack oil they will be opened for an invasion.
Are they betting they will be able to be safe to the end and their land will be enough to pull out the game?

My lack of experience in these types of games makes it hard to judge some of these factors especially how important it is to keep deals. I mean I have read some post that make it soiund as if it carries from game to game, if so them I understand. iven the length of time and the changing of players, I am not so sure it should be crucial. One or two changes of mind and purpose would seem to make sense.

	09-12-2003 04:17									#32
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I think Lego is trying to win via culture or spaceship, hence they are trying to keep bob divided and isolate us on Stormia. Hell, they might even be trying for a diplo win. Lego's founding priciple was to be a builder nation. They have admitted that they would have deviated from that course had they not been given an isolated continent. So who knows. They have also made it known that they would break a treaty if it serves their interests. No suprises there.

As long as Aggie is in control of GoW, we can make deals with them. The others on their team, Unorthodox, panzer32, hotenamel, would like nothing more than to see us removed from the game. a glimpse into their minds is in the war weariness thread onthe main forum.I don't think anyone here particularly cares who leaves the game, so long as we win, and that's even after the ugliness and slander from the vox war.

	09-12-2003 06:24									#33
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel As long as Aggie is in control of GoW, we can make deals with them. The others on their team, Unorthodox, panzer32, hotenamel, would like nothing more than to see us removed from the game.

I'd put it a bit differently: We can make progress towards deals with GoW with Aggie in charge, but at the end of the day he only has one vote - so it's the others who call the policy. Despite it being to our detriment, that's cool by me - it's their democratic choice.

I think Aggie plays a good role for them. As most of GoW are pretty wild, they can use a calm head like his.

	09-12-2003 07:19									#34
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 My lack of experience in these types of games makes it hard to judge some of these factors especially how important it is to keep deals. I mean I have read some post that make it soiund as if it carries from game to game, if so them I understand. iven the length of time and the changing of players, I am not so sure it should be crucial. One or two changes of mind and purpose would seem to make sense.

Good question.

I don't think anyone expects anyone to be angels - it's a competitive game. Having said that, reputation can count for a lot more in this game than against the AI.

The first thing I learned about this type of gaming is that much of what I knew about civ was how to beat the AI, not several teams of very able humans. Being at war with two or three AI civs is usually no big deal to an experienced player. Against humans, the enemy can co-ordinate and co-operate in ways the AI never can.

As Master Zen and others have pointed out on the gen forum, this is a new type of gaming and we're all n00bs at it, finding our way. Teams that failed to get the diplo right - for being too demanding, or simply not pro-active enough and letting the other guys' propaganda win through - they all lost out in some way - including GS. In our case, early economic and miltary success flagged as us a threat. Because of this, Lego feared us and tipped the balance to a one-versus-three power struggle.

On deal-breaking : It's not like the AI where you fire up a new game next week and no-one knows what you did last time. If, for example, BigFree and Togas on RP backstabbed us after what we've done for them, none of us, and probably no-one else would ever trust them again in a demo game again. Yes, regimes certainly can change, but memories don't. Especially if you're GoW - who apparantly maintain 'grudge threads' against teams and individuals.

Some deals have been subject to interpretation and endless bickering - including the notorious NAP's (Non Aggression Pact) which collide awkwardly with MPP's that in this format can come at any time in the game. There are lots of accusations and counter-accusations between teams about deals that went off, but I don't think I've seen any deals broken in the last few months. We tried to get GoW to backstab ND, of course, but technically we would have been delivering GoW one contract (RP off Bob) and opening a new one. We don't know whether ND know of our attempts but I'd be amazed if they didn't. They don't bear us any grudge at the moment - they just said so.

On the whole, I gather that GS has historically tried to honour it's deals, whatever GoW whining might say, though there are GS voices who have always disagreed with this policy-slant.

	09-12-2003 07:36									#35
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I understand. I just would not be bothered if someone had a good reason to make a better deal. I would hold a grudge on anyone that talk down to me or was nasty, that is personal.
Back stabbing in the game is part of the strategy (up to a point).

	09-12-2003 08:06									#36
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Hmmm... backstabbing is not for me.

If we can get some other team to backstab, then great, fault to them as far as I am concerned.

But not us, no. We will win on our skills, not on nefarious dealings.

So it is just a game, yeah... but I care about this game quite a bit, and if principles can be paramount, well, I'd rather that here than with my family's lives at stake in RL.

As far as I am concerned, we'll play this out as well as we can, and as *best* as we can... or die trying.

I hope I said that right, as it is important to me.

	09-12-2003 10:02									#37
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Sorry I did not mean I would be for doing it, only that I would not hate others for it. I mean that back stabbing to me is not the same as making a new deal. Back stabbing is I tell you one thing, while I never intend to honor it.
If I say I will trade you X for y gpt and 40 turns later decide I would rather trade it to someone else, that is not back stabbing.

If you save my life and I join someone else to take you down (in the game) much later, that is to be expected, if it is my best interest. If I do just to the heck of it, that is another story.
I hope I am clear, probably not.

	09-12-2003 10:38									#38
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quote: As far as I am concerned, we'll play this out as well as we can, and as *best* as we can... or die trying.

AKA... Fight the good fight.

	09-12-2003 16:16									#39
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I noticed that Lego had the save, so I decided to ask Vondrack for Gunpowder - worth a try, surely.

	09-12-2003 16:24									#40
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I would really enjoy to see Legos destruction.

	09-12-2003 16:52									#41
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Me, it's the GoW destruction I'd really enjoy.

	09-12-2003 17:19									#42
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That too, but I would royally enjoy to piss off vondrack.

	09-12-2003 17:31									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph That too, but I would royally enjoy to piss off vondrack.

Lego's turn to feel the heat will come. Either ND eat GoW and turn on Lego or ND/GoW turn on them. Hopefully we can watch them all bleed each other while we build up until someone offers us the right price.

	09-12-2003 19:25									#44
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I just wanna see Lego bleed a bit. They are the only civ that hasn't actually had to fight yet.

By the way, how scary is it that they still haven't had their GA?

You know... we might need to start pondering a prebuild for a late medieval or industrial age wonder. I'm sure Lego is all over trying for Smith's (who doesn't want that one!), but there are others. Copernicus & Newton are out there. The major empires might not pay much attention to them, but with the Colossus in Hurricane, we might do well to consider building one.

Or, thinking further in advance, what about ToE?

-Arrian

	09-12-2003 19:38									#45
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Yes, I fancy Copernicus in Hurricane. We could do that next, after the Uni, perhaps via a palace prebuild until the last minute.

Prebuilding the ToE would be cool - it would take some planning - sounds like a job for the Spanish Tunnel King - aka Arrian

I don't think I've ever considered the ToE before getting gunpowder before

	09-12-2003 21:13									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph That too, but I would royally enjoy to piss off vondrack.

They shouldn't be allowed to win without getting their hands dirty.

	09-12-2003 21:19									#47
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Like I said in another thread, we might consider the hanging gardens in...tempest I think. only 12 turns, and would boost our happiness and culture.

	09-12-2003 21:29									#48
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Hanging Gardens sound good. I'm surprised Lego don't take it - with their one luxury. Maybe they'll have Steam in 12 turns!

	09-12-2003 22:44									#49
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HG has a very limited lifespan. It costs 300 shields, right?

Hmm, what do people think about setting Hurricane on a palace prebuild after it finishes the Uni? Additionally, what is the food situation in Hurricane? IIRC, max shield output resulted in -1fpt, which is fine until the food box empties, requiring either a switch of WF for more food, or pumping a worker into the city.

Anyway, that palace prebuild can be used on: Copernicus, Bach, Smith, Newton, Magellan... it all depends on what other civs build and the science rate.

Regarding Tempest, does that city lack any key improvements? Temple, Library, Market, Uni?

EDIT: come to think of it, a palace prebuild in Tempest for one of the larger wonders (Bach, Smith) sounds like a good idea to me. Hurricane could maybe use the HG as a prebuild/disguise for Cop's. Problem with that is if somebody up and builds HG, we have nothing to switch over to, do we?

-Arrian

	09-12-2003 23:22									#50
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Hurricane (size 12) is currently getting 15spt, but a shuffle round could give it 19 after corruption (21-2), with -1 food and 16 food in the box.

Tempest gets 21 spt, and has uni in 8 turns. It has a mkt but no temple.

	10-12-2003 00:33									#51
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Hmm.

With a little tinkering Hurricane could build the Hanging Gardens in 10 turns. (9 when we get the next one)

I think it would be huge to land this, while it does have a limited lifespan, we are quite far away from steam power, and if we could get, say 50 turns out of it, it would be well worth it, I think. Though since we are nearly out of this war, the worlds' tech pace might pick up a bit.

We should switch Tempest to the palace (40 turns next turn) and go for music theory after gunpowder to try for bach's. I imagine that lego has a prebuild for that going already. I wish we had their map, its hard to guess at which city would have their prebuild, since we can't see much of their land. I remember how we were *****ed out for not trading our map away early on,but what about lego?


Ah damn, scratch that. Lego has built Bach's already (probably switched since they had the guarantee on sistine's. I left the above in to show my thought line. Can we make it to another wonder in 40 turns? yes, economics. Though I think, for some reason, lego has banking already...damn damn damn.

	10-12-2003 00:58									#52
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I'd rather we went for a science wonder in Hurricane. The Colossus is half-wasted without one. If we were looking at loads of corrupt cities to get up to WLTK then the HG would be stronger.

ND also have their GL - we'll have to see what they do with that.

	10-12-2003 01:06									#53
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Probably a good idea Ch, on the sci wonder in hurricane

I just noticed something very odd... apparently nd has either sold a worker or lost it in battle to lego. very strange, eh? why would lego want one slave non industrious worker? hmmm

	10-12-2003 01:25									#54
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He becomes a slave industrious worker if in their possession. It's a huge possible screw-up when cooperating industrious civs exchange their workers. They get normal speed workers which are free for the rest of the game.

	10-12-2003 01:28									#55
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Perhaps it was payment from ND ages ago when workers were more valuable. Maybe there's an old save to check it against.

	10-12-2003 01:58									#56
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I still have all saves I ever received. He first showed up 340AD.

	10-12-2003 02:09									#57
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so it must be some recent deal.

very interesting.

	10-12-2003 02:18									#58
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You cannot sell workers unless you have a city on the same continent as the other civ. To my knowledge, Lego has no cities on Bob and ND has no cities on Legoland's continent. Therefore, it would appear ND *may* have allowed Lego to capture a worker?

Regarding city builds:

I'd like to see Tempest complete that university. Wonder building after that.

Hurricane: last screenshot shows Uni in 5. From scratch at 15spt, it would hit "in 5" after 7 turns (with 105 shields accumulated). So next turn, Hurricane should have 120 shields (8 turns @ 15/turn) in the box. 40 shields to go. We have 2 options:

1) Allow it to finish as-is, in 5 (4 when we get the next save) turns.

2) Reconfigure for 19spt next turn. Then, the turn after next, the city will have 139shields accumulated At this point, we rush the university, and switch WF back to positive food/max trade. Switching the WF for max shields saves us a whopping 16 gold... actually less because IIRC, this involves giving up 1 commerce/turn, which may be amplified by improvements... still, I think it's a savings overall. This cuts 1 turn off the uni completion.

Then, after the uni... reconfigure for 19spt. At this point, we should have ~15 food in the box. If we run at 19spt for 15 turns, that's 285 shields. How many is Cop's again?

-Arrian

	10-12-2003 02:33									#59
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I'm not sure whether Hurricane has had consistent shields - there was some MM around the south to get a worker pump going and timing an aqua build a few turns back.

	10-12-2003 03:13									#60
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The only city that should affect Hurricane's WF is EotS.

-Arrian