02-12-2003 21:57									#1
	Possible message to ND Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Here is a rather random first draft of a possible message to ND - mostly to spark discussion in this forum of what we actually want to put in.

quote: Greetings Darekill, As you've probably heard, the discovery that Lego were willing to enter the war if we attacked the Glory of War's or your homeland has caused us some problems, and prompted some attempts at diplomacy on our part. I expect you've been told that we tried to negotiate a deal with GoW to get them to attack Neu Demogyptica, and divide Bob between GoW, Gathering Storm and Lego (with, very roughly, equal amounts of land in total for each being the plan). Despite GoW being offered more land than they would have sharing Bob with you, they turned us down (I think we were offering them 500 tiles or so, with the other 250 on Bob going to us, Lego and possibly Roleplay). So now we need a new plan. It probably won't surprise you that our new plan is to try and persuade you to attack GoW in alliance with us. This plan is only in outline at the moment, but of the 750 tiles on Bob we'd be offering a deal where you get 600 of them, and we get the other 150 (in the area that is currently the charred remains of Spain). That would give us roughly 350 tiles in total, including Stormia, to be shared between us and Roleplay. Lego would still have 400, not including land in Vox. This would put you on an equal footing with Lego - with more land but less development, and leave us still in with a slight chance in the game. The details can obviously be hammered out in the near future, but this note is just to ask whether you have any interest in some kind of deal of this nature, or whether you are determined to stick with your current arrangement with GoW on Bob. P.S. Ignore Sir Ralph's poetry criticism - he is an uncultured barbarian.

	02-12-2003 22:14									#2
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I think it's too direct to reveal our intentions in the very first post. And for that last comment, at you!

	02-12-2003 22:30									#3
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So how much do you think we can reveal. That we are interested in peace? That we want peace plus an alliance vs GoW? Or is just the strategic outline of how we see the balance of power too much?

I think offering peace only is a bit weak - we can pretty much assume they'd be up for that, so saying "do you want peace?" "yes - what are the terms?" is an exchange of PMs to no effect. I'm guessing that they know that we approached GoW to attack them, and have either been told or can reasonably guess the kind of offer we could make (in terms of land anyway). So they might be expecting something similar from us to them, and would probably also turn it down in sympathy with GoW's loyalty. So the land figures are thrown in to get their attention and make them think seriously about the offer.

After that, they can probably see the consequences as well as we can - they have 600 tiles, we have 350, Lego has 400 (probably more for ND and less for us in practice). So we're not giving away anything by putting it in so many words, and Darekill might just appreciate the plain speaking.

That at least was my line of thinking when drafting this.

I suppose the alternative would be some kind of "are you determined to stick to your alliance with GoW, or can you be seduced for a suitable price?". I just worry that that might be dismissed straight away because they don't think we'll make an offer anywhere near as good as we are thinking now.

	02-12-2003 22:45									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Let's discuss this a bit later and maybe wait for some others to coin in. We have nowhere to hurry. I'm awfully tired after work and in a pretty bad mood, let me rest a bit.

	02-12-2003 23:43									#5
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Yes, a good idea to start a thread on this subject - and some issues have already been highlighted.

We would have to tread carefully, and I'd suggest that any first move would probably be to gently open diplomatic channels - with a view to peace talks but without really saying anything - to see how they react. I think it's too early to start talking high stakes.

They have no reason to trust us, every reason to hate us, and doubtless feel they have the upper hand. They may be interested in peace, but until we've got somewhere with those talks, I think that the suggestion of 'Steamed Rice' should have the lid kept on it until the time is right. If - as is possible, GoW and ND split up, that might be a time to get allied with ND.

We have to expect that they won't split up while we're still on Bob.

	03-12-2003 03:00									#6
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I doubt ND will backstab GoW. However, it does no harm to try.

Though I wouldn't be at all surprised if ND was aware of our attempt at setting up an alliance to destroy them, I think we might be better served by going down this road:

Inform them we're interested in peace, but remain unwilling to concede *all* of Bob. We recognize they have the upper hand militarily and diplomatically (an allusion to Lego's choice and GoW's decision to turn us down, without actually saying it), and will negotiate accordingly, but surely they must also recognize that every turn they have to fight us is a turn they cannot be developing Bob. That's really about the only leverage we have.

Frankly, the logic actually applies to GoW much more than to ND. It's GoW that's REALLY screwed by our defense of Spain, because that's the land they were supposed to get and our presense has thus far denied it to them. But no matter.

-Arrian

	03-12-2003 04:28									#7
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Let's deal with this after getting the turn out, but I agree that the original was too detailed. Good start though.

	03-12-2003 05:59									#8
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Hmmm... how about a much more general overture?

[quote]Greetings Darekill,

First off, congratulations on your successes at the Forest of Doom... mothers and chicken trainers throughout Stormia mourn as we speak.

Second, keep writing poems when the spirit takes you! We apologize at the resultant furor; your intent and respect are understood.

As you know, we have been pursuing a certain diplomatic and military path. Along with the terrible loss of our Knights, but, more importantly, considering the long-term course of the game, we tire of these Bobian wars. And, as you are surely concerned, we feel that this conflict overly benefits a different party: Lego.

We would be interested in a dialogue, or even a tri-alogue, about a resolution. We believe that each of three of us - ND, GoW, and GS - have currency to mutually offer one another.

As has been noted in the public forum, GS has been working on becoming a better diplomatic player... but we have not engaged in any material discussion with you. Perhaps now could be a beginning?

Respectfully,
vulture
(many glorious titles)

	03-12-2003 14:50									#9
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Well, Darekill has told SR that

(a) his poem was crap, and intended to mildly taunt us
(b) his 'defenders' on the forum were not defending him, so much as using it as an excuse to get on the bandwagon against us
(c) he doesn't have anything against any of us

This is excellent news, and I say we should use Theseus' draft. I like the notion of a tri-alogue. As Arrian has said, it's GoW that we shafted by adopting our position on Bob, and it's their paycheck from ND (Spain) that we're sitting on.

So we've got everything to gain and nothing to lose from this.

	04-12-2003 03:56									#10
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So vulture / SR, can someone get this show on the road for us?

I reckon GoW want to carry on the slog, however sane Aggie comes across, and I'm just about ready to give up on them. It's possible that ND may consider a halt. If they won't then we're off Bob, AFAICS.

	04-12-2003 15:38									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I've sent the message (Theseus' version) to Darekill, and he has already responded, just to say that he's posted it on theit forum and they will discuss it and get back to us.

	04-12-2003 15:49									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus So vulture / SR, can someone get this show on the road for us?

It's better if vulture does it (duh, he already did...), because I'm a horrible diplomat. I tend to get too emotional. Let me better evaluate the situation and the best psychological approach based on their national traits from the background. I can chime in in difficult situations, or go on a "recon mission" like my recent PM change with Darekill, that's better usage of me.

Will say, use me as a weapon on occasion (duh, what a braggart I am... ) rather to wear me out.

	04-12-2003 19:50									#13
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You are not a horrible diplomat. I don't think you are, anyway. Well, maybe we're just both horrible diplomats and we cancel out?

-Arrian

	08-12-2003 16:30									#14
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ND say no to peace now (see log) - we and RP must be off what they call 'Borconia' (Bob/Spain?)- and sign a never-come-back treaty!

So if we and RP are gone but we refuse to sign a never-again-do-we-touch-Bob treaty, then the war continues. Interesting.

	08-12-2003 16:45									#15
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Is this the time to start negotiating a public "get the hell off Bob and don't come back until we say you can" ("yes Daddy!") and a private "We'll got for now, but come back and help you trash GoW, in return for some land" treaty?

	08-12-2003 17:14									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'd love to know what ND would think of such an offer, but whether we'll be in a position to help anyone trash anyone in five turns from now is uncertain.

Also, I believe Lego would aid GoW against ND - especially if we joined in.

One thing's for sure - I've no appetite for signing their 'Yes Daddy' humilliation - that's too close to unconditional surrender. This indicates that unless they are bluffing they will take the fight to Stormia - I think it's time to start spelling out some home truths to Lego, and finally test vondrack's concept of 'balance'.

	08-12-2003 17:20									#17
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Do not sign an agreement where we promise never to return to Bob! If they want to continue the war, let them, so far we're not really hit by WW...

At least delay the negotiations until we see where SP is. But I guess you already know that

DeepO

	08-12-2003 17:48									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Thinking about it further, Lego might be delighted for the war to continue, with ND and GoW trying to assault Stormia, so they may well back their allies on this one too. However, this would contradict their position that they oppose an attack on Stormia.

I think we should say this to Lego :

quote: 1. GS have been told by ND that in addition to the removal of RP and GS from Bob, we must promise never to set foot there again. If we signed this, we would be out of contention immediately from the game. 2. This might be nice for Lego - to break a rival, but less good for Lego is that by breaking GS in this way no-one will be able to help Lego against the Bobian juggernaught. 3. If GS do not sign, ND and GoW will presumably assult Stormia, which might also be nice for Lego - breaking one rival and weakening two others, but if they succeed and eliminate GS & RP from the game, then ND & GoW have 950 tiles to Lego's 400 + Vox. That's very close to domination if they want to declare it, and even if they don't, Lego have 1 luxury, GoW/ND would have seven. 4. Lego have stated that they do not support an attack on Stormia. If so, they cannot support their allies current demands against GS without (a) reversing their policy and (b) very probably handing ND/GoW the game.

	08-12-2003 20:08									#19
	Remove this text

F*ck'em.

I knew there was a good reason we played the 'Always War' AU course.

	08-12-2003 22:38									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

What if we say to Darekill that if they can prove we're on no SP deposits, we'll piss off now?

	08-12-2003 22:46									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

Nice idea.

what if we agreed that they would give us gunpowder and we see that we are on no deposits, then we would withdraw our defending units. (or gift the cities or abandon them)

I wouldn't give them any gold, as they are getting territory basically for free then and an end to the war weariness from us. an easy deal for them, assuming that we aren't on deposits and they have the ability to trade(nda perhaps)

I would never sign something that amounts to an unconditional surrender. If that's what they want, then they know where the eye is.

	08-12-2003 23:02									#22
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Hmm, as it stands we can destroy the cities, but we could *give* them to ND - now *that's* a bargaining chip.

	08-12-2003 23:04									#23
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I like the proposals points that CH posted. I don't see how it is wise for Lego to do anything to help GoW. I can see where the staus quo is good for them. All the warring parties keep on fighting, but no real change in land.

What is Legos plan to win? With one Lux, they will be hard pressed to be in a long war. How do they gain land? The only way for them is to team up and get a deal with someone. They can't gain (significant) land any place with out either GS or GoW can they?

I have no history in the game, but it does seem to me that it is unacceptable to sign any do not come back deals. May as well go out in a blaze.

	08-12-2003 23:05									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I knew there was a good reason we played the 'Always War' AU course.

Was the reason that we are nuts?

	08-12-2003 23:15									#25
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I've a feeling they won't be going for it, but here's a draft anyway ...

quote: Darekill, Thanks for stating your terms, I will be direct. First, we are unable to accept the 'unconditional surrender' aspect of your proposal. Second, if it can be proven that we are not holding any saltpeter (SP) deposits we can leave Bob immediately. Third, if we came to a deal, we could gift you cities under our control, rather than disbanding them. If, in exchange for these cities and the land we hold, you could give us gunpowder it would prove that we hold no SP on Bob, and we will leave. The alternative is to evict us from Bob the slow and more expensive way, and we'll have gunpowder soon anyway Regards, etc

	08-12-2003 23:19									#26
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One thing I just thought of...

Is gunpowder now enough? ND has already played their turn, so we will only be saving what, 2 turns (or about 60 gold)? maybe we could get something else out of it.

	08-12-2003 23:27									#27
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 What is Legos plan to win? With one Lux, they will be hard pressed to be in a long war. How do they gain land? The only way for them is to team up and get a deal with someone. They can't gain (significant) land any place with out either GS or GoW can they?

AIUI, Lego don't plan on getting any more land for production - they have enough - but as you say, luxuries are their problem, and they won't last long without allies. Their game has been to weaken GS to the point of removing us as a threat, but intending to have us as an ally after that. Read Lego's official position here

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I have no history in the game, but it does seem to me that it is unacceptable to sign any do not come back deals. May as well go out in a blaze.

Quite right

	09-12-2003 01:18									#28
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Worst case, I know we can hold on until Riflemen... build up our economic power again, and then MOBILIZE.

MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

	09-12-2003 01:35									#29
	Put an end to popups!

I just read Lego's position, thanks for that link, Cort. I hadn't seen that message.

Muther****ers. Smart muther****ers. But muther****ers nonetheless.

-Arrian

	09-12-2003 03:30									#30
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Thanks for the link. That was well thought and concise. I would agree that they acted in a way that was smart for them.
Since I do not carry any of the acromony form the past, I have no reason to view them as anything other than an opponent.
ND has already provided me with some incentive to dislike them, not counting the fact that we are at war with them.