04-12-2003 01:50									#1
	Smoke-Jaguar versus Sid. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ok, time for one of us to throw down the gauntlet and challenge the Strat forum to a Sid-level game. That will be me. korn469 already post a thread for a comparative Sid exercise, but it died pretty quickly (maybe because Plains, no fresh water and Sid difficulty are not a great combination - what were you thinking!?).

Below is a 4000BC savegame of my second attempt at Sid. As you can see from the screenshot in the next post, the starting location is thankfully quite good. I selected the Mayans, as I feel that Agricultural/Industrious is a consistently strong trait across difficulty levels (all the way up to Sid). Maybe I'll even have a chance to Barb farm with Javelin Throwers for a bit before AI stacks of doom come to ruin my fun.

I invite anyone to try this out with me. Think of it as an exercise, and less a "fun" game. Once you think about it the right way even Sid can be fun I think, despite the fact that you'll be playing catchup until the Industrial era (or beyond!).

Concerning the gpt bug, I plan to ignore it. Early on it will be necessary to give the AI gpt to keep alive in the tech, so the AI has the advantage there. Once I start asking the AI for gpt, well, I'll more or less have "beat" Sid at that point.

Let's see how rough Sid really is!


Dominae

Attachment: smoke-jaguar versus sid, 4000 bc.sav
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	04-12-2003 01:51									#2
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Yay Cattle.

Attachment: smoke-jaguar versus sid - start.jpg
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	04-12-2003 01:56									#3
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What are the other game settings you've chosen for this one? Map, barbs, etc., etc.,

	04-12-2003 01:58									#4
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+5 food once you irrigate that sucker. Mmm, agricultural.

Enjoy, Dom. I'll be interested in how things go, but this isn't my cup 'o tea.

-Arrian

	04-12-2003 02:05									#5
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As soon as my Carthaginian Knights are done with my Monarch level rampage, I plan to try this out. With only 1 Emperor start under my belt, and that only to the end of Peaceful Rex, this one should be a relatively short game for me.

Thanks for posting it, Dom!

	04-12-2003 02:07									#6
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 What are the other game settings you've chosen for this one? Map, barbs, etc., etc.

Map: Everything standard, including Size.
Barbs: Roaming.
Rules: Default.

quote: Enjoy, Dom. I'll be interested in how things go, but this isn't my cup 'o tea.

Thanks, I'll be sure to let you know how badly I get humiliated.


Dominae

	04-12-2003 02:42									#7
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I will have a Sid challenge after the game is fixed. Sid is a squeeze-all-you-can-out-of-the-land level, one has to be very anal what concerns food, shields and gold and I just wouldn't enjoy this with a broken game. Even more since I suppose, that I won't play more than one Sid challenge ever.

	04-12-2003 04:39									#8
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I have only got to three demi games so far, what happened to deity first?
I downloaded it, maybe I will take the plunge and my lumps.

	04-12-2003 04:46									#9
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BTW I am not so concrned about the cow as I am about how many and where any luxs may be located.

	04-12-2003 05:20									#10
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Excellent. As a builder who normally plays Monarch, I give myself 35 turns

	04-12-2003 06:00									#11
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I started and he map looks good. Now if it was only at a level that was a tad bit more leisurely.

Anyway it occurs to me that the Ag trait may not be so good for Sid level. Maybe I am not thinking clearly, but being able to grow and make more units/settlers/workers will not be all that great with a civ near you. Cheap temples and barracks may be more helpful.

It did not take long for the AI to demand some cash and with the scabs of archers and warriors they have close to me, I had no choice.

Wonders are being built faster that warriors, very depresing.
Temple of Artemis up in Kyoto in 2190BC and they did the HG soon after, ouch.

	04-12-2003 06:38									#12
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I tried it for a while and got pounded not by my neighbors but by barbs! Barb warriors won every battle and basically overran my fledgling empire.

I've seen the wonders thing too. The Colossus was completed in 2850 and the Oracle just a bit later.

I think I'll try this again later and hope that the barbs don't get the RNG luck again.

	04-12-2003 07:13									#13
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I'll wait a bit before posting any screenshots, but for now (I hate to say this): this is a lot easier than I thought!

Edit: This is not to say that this will be an "easy" game...not by a long shot!

Although the Mongols probably have an crazy number of military units, and I've been hopelessly outrun to every Ancient era Wonder (Pyramids in 2430BC, ouch!), REX has gone rather well. I'll probably have at least 15 or so productive cities when I hit the Medieval era. The Mongols did not have the best starting location (or so it seems), and they had a bunch of room to expand that was not in my direction. All I need to do now is keep up in tech and things should shape up somewhere around the Industrial era.

The Corruption in C3C is rather annoying. When you're trying to milk everything you can out of your empire, it's hard not to notice such things...

Oh, and I'm 3 for 3 with the Enslave ability.


Dominae

	04-12-2003 07:58									#14
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No slaves for me so far and the barbs won most of the early fight and nearly got my two vet warriors escorting my settler. They send 5 units, but I survived and made the town.

It is not going too badly, since no one has come for my head and I have managed to get two luxs roaded. I am so far behind in techs, it is funny. I am just making JT's and spears.

Japan is close to me an dhas already built Zeus and is working on the Templar, that should be fun for me when they get ready.

	04-12-2003 08:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'll wait a bit before posting any screenshots, but for now (I hate to say this): this is a lot easier than I thought! Edit: This is not to say that this will be an "easy" game...not by a long shot! Although the Mongols probably have an crazy number of military units, and I've been hopelessly outrun to every Ancient era Wonder (Pyramids in 2430BC, ouch!), REX has gone rather well. I'll probably have at least 15 or so productive cities when I hit the Medieval era. The Mongols did not have the best starting location (or so it seems), and they had a bunch of room to expand that was not in my direction. All I need to do now is keep up in tech and things should shape up somewhere around the Industrial era. The Corruption in C3C is rather annoying. When you're trying to milk everything you can out of your empire, it's hard not to notice such things... Oh, and I'm 3 for 3 with the Enslave ability. Dominae

Sounds good Dominae Let's see if you can make it 6 for 6

	04-12-2003 08:57									#16
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Ok, I'm taking a (perhaps indefinite) break from this game to officially point out that Corruption is stupid in C3C.

In the screenshot below, the city of Bonampak (lower left) is producing 11 Shields per turn, of which 10 are lost to Corruption. It's a distance 6, and I have 3 other cities at that distance. I am using some pretty tight spacing in some places, but at a glance (from experience) I feel that a city like that should be producing at least 2 Shields per turn. Otherwise there is no point in going much further than 5CC, because all those extra cities are guaranteed to suck.

(Yes, I'm still in Desptism, but sheesh!).

On Sid difficulty, what this means is that even if you do manage to do some pretty successful REXing (like I believe I have in this game), you still have to wait like 200 turns before amassing a big enough army to put a dent in the nearest civ. This is indendepent of the tech issue, which of course is very much relevant.

I know it sounds like I'm angry at Sid, but really I think I would have this game in hand if Corruption were not so ridiculous. Sir Ralph was correct to not even attempt this one for this very reason.

Attachment: smoke-jaguar versus sid - corruption.jpg
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Last edited by Dominae on 04-12-2003 at 12:47

	04-12-2003 08:58									#17
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Normally play Monarch - and OUCH!

Still alive in 500BC but basically surrounded by Mongols with no room to expand. Won a couple of skirmishes with the Spanish and Japanese but I don't have the tech to build anything useful in my productive cities....

At least I haven't been squashed yet, I suppose...

	04-12-2003 08:59									#18
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By the way, I'm now 4 for 7 with Enslave, and there's a nice big juicy stack of Barb Horsemen (from an uprising) just waiting to go to work for me!


Dominae

	04-12-2003 09:43									#19
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Well, I'm also normally playing at Monarch and all I can say is Holey Moley!

This is insanely difficult, my shoulders are starting to hunch over, I'm all tensed up and not enjoying it like I do a Monarch game, but what the heck, it was worth a shot. Got one Enslavement. Not sure I'll go any further. Just not "fun".

I honestly don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, what I'm doing wrong, how I'm going to catch up on tech, etc.

Truly painful.
Newfound respect for those that can compete at this level.

Attachment: pain.jpg
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	04-12-2003 10:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae By the way, I'm now 4 for 7 with Enslave, and there's a nice big juicy stack of Barb Horsemen (from an uprising) just waiting to go to work for me! Dominae

where did you find any barbs to enslave? The AI was all over the map clearing barbs beofre I even had any JT's. I killed a couple with JT, but no enslave. The rest were all warrior fights.

	04-12-2003 10:12									#21
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BTW I am trying to beat the corruption by not making so many cities. I have about the same land, but only half the cities you have.
My original idea was to give the capitol some room, but that was dumb, since I will not be making any wonders until at least the industrial age, due to tech.

I also more or less headed straight to Monarchy and I am researching it now. I think I made a mistake in not making more cities as I cannot make more troops because of the upkeep.

	04-12-2003 14:41									#22
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I will play your Sid challenge after the game is fixed.

	04-12-2003 19:05									#23
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What's the OCN for that size map on Sid level?

The RCP "fix" is killing you. By my count, you have:

1 city at distance 2
3 cities at distance 3
2 cities at distance 4
2 cities at distance 5
4 cities at distance 6

Ok, then. As I understand corruption, the first city is ranked 1. Then you have 3 tied at rank 4. Then 2 at 6. Then 2 at 8. Then 4 at 12. Bonampak is therefore ranked 12. Ick.

-Arrian

	04-12-2003 19:11									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae On Sid difficulty, what this means is that even if you do manage to do some pretty successful REXing (like I believe I have in this game), you still have to wait like 200 turns before amassing a big enough army to put a dent in the nearest civ. This is indendepent of the tech issue, which of course is very much relevant.

Hehe Deity in vanilla when it first came out also seemed ridiculous.........resources will be found I'm sure.

I'm interested in your progress; I suppose you are out of the tech race now. When you attack it will presumably have to be in large numbers against a well advanced and armed foe.

	04-12-2003 20:24									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The RCP "fix" is killing you. By my count, you have: 1 city at distance 2 3 cities at distance 3 2 cities at distance 4 2 cities at distance 5 4 cities at distance 6

I even tried to spread them out as much as possible!

quote: Hehe Deity in vanilla when it first came out also seemed ridiculous.........resources will be found I'm sure.

I've been playing the game long enough that I know what I should and should not be capable of. With the amount of land availalbe to me, I should have more than 5 productive cities at this point. This is independent of how strong the opposition is. It took a difficult game to show me how bad Corruptino is now; I could usually do just fine on Demigod and below with the power of those 5 or so cities alone.


Dominae

	05-12-2003 02:51									#26
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quote: It took a difficult game to show me how bad Corruptino is now

"Corruptino". Maybe we can send Firaxis et al a picture of a big fat mafia guy with this one word caption so they understand how we feel abot c3c corruption..

	05-12-2003 05:42									#27
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I am still alive and have meet all the civs. I sent two cargs and one made it Nippar or one of Hammies cities, where I met the other two civs. That is about all the good news I got. 270BC someone finished Leo's. I am still working on Monarchy.
So basically I am a whole age behind already. The good news is the techs will be cheap to learn.

	05-12-2003 15:36									#28
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I am still alive and have meet all the civs. I sent two cargs and one made it Nippar or one of Hammies cities, where I met the other two civs. That is about all the good news I got. 270BC someone finished Leo's. I am still working on Monarchy. So basically I am a whole age behind already. The good news is the techs will be cheap to learn.

What's your attack timing plan? Go to early and you don't have enough..........go too late and they will have too many nice units.

	05-12-2003 15:55									#29
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If you build more than 2 cities at any spacing, you're getting screwed. I tend to build 1 at every possible distance, and only start doubling up at 5 or 6 if necessary.

I played this game tonight, and ran into a buzzsaw after doing very well at the start. The gpt bug and being behind in tech is a problem, because they can sign alliances and you can't. I also officially hate Zeus! More later...

	05-12-2003 15:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson If you build more than 2 cities at any spacing, you're getting screwed. I tend to build 1 at every possible distance, and only start doubling up at 5 or 6 if necessary.

Hehe one reason to delay these Sid games from my point of view is that I do not wish to start thinking like this.

But, another 6 weeks or so.