05-12-2003 04:19									#61
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I know parents who have never spanked their kids, their kids are well behaved, intelligent, strong and full of personality.

Combat:

	05-12-2003 04:21									#62
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

My mom kept all the large kitchen utensils in a large pot on the stove. One time she got mad, went for the spoon, and a grabbed one of them wooden speghiti strainers (the wooden spoon with all the spikes on it)... Man that hurt, I think she broke it on my arse.

	05-12-2003 04:22									#63
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Jeez, Japh that sucks!

	05-12-2003 05:04									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

That really shouldn't be funny It does indeed suck.

	05-12-2003 05:19									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was lectured and lectured and lectured and lectured and lectured and...

I hate being lectured, but it was very effective IMHO.

	05-12-2003 12:25									#66
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I know parents who have never spanked their kids, their kids are well behaved, intelligent, strong and full of personality. Combat:

just because you can find one example doesn't mean it applies to everyone. For your info- not everyone is alike.

I didn't need much discipline because I was generally a good kid who knew how to think independantly and with logic even when I was very young. I did not need to be spanked. But some kids are just hellraisers, and you may need to spank them. In either case it should always be a last resort and should never be done in the heat of the moment. The best way to do it, is to send the kid to his room first, cool down, and then dole out punishment.

	05-12-2003 18:39									#67
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

St Leo: Seconded

quote: just because you can find one example doesn't mean it applies to everyone. For your info- not everyone is alike.

That goes without saying. It does show it is possible for children to be raised in a non-violent household. Incidentally, my plural is not two. Off the top of my head, it is at least eight, all with very different kids.

We agree that hot-blooded assault is unacceptable. When one has full control of ones faculties, and the child has the opportunity to calm down, spanking them becomes plain abuse imo, and a poor substitute for other measures that can be taken, indeed, longer lasting. How many times do spankings have to be repeated? .

A parent who feels they must spank their children is an incompetant parent.

	05-12-2003 19:19									#68
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

@ rah

Of course, we are from similar backgrounds and our kids are the same age... :shrug:

	05-12-2003 19:53									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Since my daughter is a straight A student that's never been in any real trouble and is in many activities including charity work, my wife and I must have done something right. At the least, we were not incompetant.
So your last statement, WB, is not necessarily true.

	05-12-2003 21:10									#70
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Firstly, since your daughter appears to be well behaved and on "the right path", the need for spanking is neglected, so one can assume that you don't do it much, but my problem is that you reserve your right to do so.

A light spanking obviously has less consequences for the child than heavy spankings or beatings, but it is still assault, and I have never found it necessary to do so when I am primary carer for my brothers, nor would I do it even if I considered it necessary... there are always alternatives.

Your argument implies that your daughters success is due to your spanking, but I find that to both demean her abilities, and the positive aspects of your parenting.

	05-12-2003 21:20									#71
	Remove this text

He's certainly not saying that (your last statement), Whaleboy.
Get real.

	05-12-2003 21:23									#72
	Suffering from ads?

On the contrary, in a debate about corporal punishment, he brings in his daughters success, and his own parenting methods, where he supports the use of corporal punishment. The implication there is more than obvious.

	05-12-2003 21:25									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

No, I was responding to your blatant eroneous generalization that any parent that spanks is incompetent. Nothing is ever that black and white.

And Yes, I do think I had the right to determine how my daughter was raised as long as I didn't beat her physically or mentally.
And personally, as long as I didn't, it's none of your concern. You can raise kids your way, and I'm entitled to my way, without your holier than thou attitude that I didn't do it right. The proof is in the results.

RAH
and now that she is 16, spanking is no longer an option.

	05-12-2003 21:33									#74
	Remove this text

quote: No, I was responding to your blatant eroneous generalization that any parent that spanks is incompetent. Nothing is ever that black and white.

Conceded, however it would be better defined as an act of incompetant parenting. A negative that does not preclude the existence of other positives, but negative nonetheless.

quote: And Yes, I do think I had the right to determine how my daughter was raised as long as I didn't beat her physically or mentally. And personally, as long as I didn't, it's none of your concern. You can raise kids your way, and I'm entitled to my way, without your holier than thou attitude that I didn't do it right.

No need to get territorial. Of course you have the right to determine it, just as I have the right to say that I believe you are in error. Its not like im forcing you to do something. Lets not forget that it is a very slippery slope from spanking to beatings, especially if spankings do not work and the parent has little control over their emotions. You will concur that the hardest part of childcare is keeping a level head.

quote: The proof is in the results.

So because you spanked your child, she turned out the way she did? I believe you are talking about your parenting method in general, you have not critiqued my point that spanking is a negative act towards ones child. You have merely demonstrated that other stuff you and your wife have done have outweighed that.

	05-12-2003 21:34									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: That really shouldn't be funny It does indeed suck.

Naw, I was a problem child. Not sure what I did to deserve that one, but I generally got spanked once a week for one thing or another; hitting/fighting with my sisters, swearing, sticking things where they don't belong, etc... Until I was out of elementry school I probably only went to 4 days of school (expeled the other 1, or sat in the principles office)... In Jr. High I was suspended about 3-4 times per year, my parents stopped punishing me about this time and just told me that it was up to me to direct my own life... In Jr. High I did get excellent grades and was in accelerated courses, but it wasn't until HS that I started straightening out... I needed and deserved spankings' the harder the better.

Indeed I was no daughter of rah... Careful there, rah, the quiet ones are always the worse

	05-12-2003 21:37									#76
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I only hope you dont resort to the same barbarism with your own children.

	05-12-2003 21:42									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Conceded, however it would be better defined as an act of incompetant parenting. A negative that does not preclude the existence of other positives, but negative nonetheless.

Again... your point that spanking is defined as an act of incompentant parenting is just pure crap.

Like my brother, I also used spankings (NOT BEATINGS OR ABUSE) as a useful tool when needed in raising my two daughters... Both are also well adjusted straight A students who are very well mannered and behaved. Granted, spankings were only needed on VERY FEW occasions, but it always remained as an option. Any form of punishment could be considered a Negative... and in my opinion, spanking is no more negative than groundings or time outs. My wife and I use a combination of both postitive and negative methods in dealing with out children.

So you are always welcome to your opinion... but to generalize that any parent that resorts to spanking (NOT BEATINGS OR ABUSE) is incompetant is just plain wrong.

	05-12-2003 21:49									#78
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: I only hope you dont resort to the same barbarism with your own children.

What?! The only reason to have kids is to make them into your slaves and to beat them when they disobey!

I have no problem with the spankings I received, besides I am white so there is nothing I could of done about it (just kidding )...

I agree with Rah physical punishment is no more harsh than mental punishments. These days, however, it seems you can't punish at all without it getting too close to abuse, and that's BS... If I had not received the punishment I did I would be much worse for it. Yet, if I were a child to day I'd probably be put on Ritalin, checked into special ed, and living in a foster home instead of being accelerated through school to feed my curiosity, enrolling in numerous after school/work activities, and having a happy childhood that I can actually remember...

Note: As a rough kid, I beat myself up more than my parents did; falling out of trees of bikes, shooting myself in the foot with a BB gun, the likes...

	05-12-2003 22:10									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yeah, WB, I do take it a bit personal when someone says I'm an incompetent parent. Parenting is not an exact science despite what "EXPERTS" claim in books attempting to make money.

And I'll agree that spankings were probably not the determining factor in my daughter's current successes (teenagers can flip at any time )
It was just one arrow in the parenting quiver that was used. And it is just my personal opinion that it can be an effective arrow.

But I'll take it one step further.
When we were growing up in grammer school, we were subjected to corporal punishment in the Catholic Grammer school that we attended. Our counterparts in the public schools were not.
When we were merged in the public high school,
A higher percentage of the Catholic students made the honor roll than the public kids.
A lower percentage got juvie records with the local police.
Our Catholic school reported the numbers to encourage the flock that it was worth the extra money. Granted, there was some bias involved but the numbers were quite significantly different. And a lot of the best Catholic students went to Catholic High schools and where not even included.

Now there are many other factors that influence this type of thing, but I'm inclined to believe that since the biggest difference between the schools was the way discipline was handled, it a high probabiliyt that it was a factor.

I had many opportunities to visit my daughter's grammers school, and I have to admit that the Kids weren't as docile and attentive in class as we were in the Catholic schools. Some of that was due to discipline. Things have changed over time, but not that much.

	05-12-2003 22:57									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: So you are always welcome to your opinion... but to generalize that any parent that resorts to spanking (NOT BEATINGS OR ABUSE) is incompetant is just plain wrong.

After my last post, that is a strawman.

quote: Again... your point that spanking is defined as an act of incompentant parenting is just pure crap.

Why? An easy, oft emotional method used instead of a more difficult, yet more productive and arguably, effective method. Cutting corners seems to be a pretty central feature of incompetance to me. Spanking is an element of incompetant parenting. Whether you are incometent or not is dependent on whether you do other good stuff too. Spanking is always incompetant in other words, not necessarily the parent that does it. I apologise for misunderstanding.

Japher: Read Lord of the Flies.

quote: Yeah, WB, I do take it a bit personal when someone says I'm an incompetent parent.

As a liberal, Whaleboy cares not for hurt feelings!

Indeed parenting is not an exact science, but there are boundaries. I find your "arrows in quiver" argument disturbingly similar to those who justified beating their wife in times past.

Its like war or indeed any problem that would be solved with violence, there are always alternatives, and I dare say on the personal level, those alternatives are far easier to apply, given strong willpower.

Your example is very interesting, and without further information about your schooling I cannot comment, except to say that my own parents who went into harsh schooling failed, due to their rebelling against the harsh disciplinary system. Coupled with a point someone made earlier about hitting chidlren with different views to your own, I am inclined to say that good behaviour + conformity encouraged by harsh discipline (the active factor here, of which corporal punishment is only a constituent - penguins and birds) serves as a supresssant. As someone who was himself failed by a highly disclined childhood and schooling (corp punishment in the former, frequent verbal abuse in the latter), and later turned out to be myself... I like to think of myself as well behaved ... I can say that heavy discipline may help some children, fails others, but none of which takes away from the fact that it is still assault!

Going against the books are we? . I give more credibility to child psychologists that I do the experiences of one set of parents, which is at odds with others.

Let me put this to you: If you were in the position of, say, mid 20's, and about to have kids, would you rather they turn into attentive, docile, obediant, well behaved darlings, or upstarted, expressive, opinionated, subversive and free thinking individuals. I don't need to go into the nature of the education system here. I prefer the latter.

	05-12-2003 23:40									#81
	Got spare money?

Yes, there's a fine line there. but when kids are opinionated and subversive to the detriment of their fellow students through interuptions of the learning process, I do have a BIG problem with that. I don't want bart simpson types in my child's class.

My daughter is quite opinionated, but respects her teachers enough not to cause disruptions during classes. My daughter knows the difference. Most undisciplined children do not. Then the whole class suffers because of some spoiled class clown.

Your only real arguement is that corporal punishment in any kind is assault. A light spanking is a far cry from assault But it's obvious that you can't admit that without your whole arguement collapsing on itself, so you won't. And I doubt I will be able to be convinced that it is assault.

But it is comforting that not one other person that has posted thinks that a light spanking is assualt. There is hope for the next generation. I know that this doesn't make you wrong, but I'm glad a lot of people aren't agreeing with you about it.

	06-12-2003 00:15									#82
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Are we done now?

	06-12-2003 00:28									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah, I think I've beaten this dead horse enough.

	06-12-2003 01:17									#84
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Let me put this to you: If you were in the position of, say, mid 20's, and about to have kids, would you rather they turn into attentive, docile, obediant, well behaved darlings, or upstarted, expressive, opinionated, subversive and free thinking individuals. I don't need to go into the nature of the education system here. I prefer the latter.

Mine are well behaved, opinionated, and very free thinking individuals. My kids question authority on a regular basis... but do it in a polite and respectable manner. Your point that these traits are inconsistent and "either/or" is also sadly mistaken.

But then again, I'm sure it's hard for you to understand since you aren't a parent and you have no clue what you are talking about

	06-12-2003 01:28									#85
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Our older daughter can get pretty wound up, and sometimes needs a swat on the bottom to get her attention. I have no problem with that. The younger one almost never needs it.

We generally use a ticket system at our house. Went out and bought a roll of admission tickets like you might use for rides at a carnival. If a child is good that day she gets a ticket. Very good, two tickets. If she misbehaves, it costs her a ticket. Tickets are redeemable at the local toy store once a month at the rate of about 10 cents a ticket. Tangible reward plus a bit of sibing rivalry ("she got two today but I only got one") makes this a pretty effective system. When I had to single parent for a couple months this was the best 10 cents I ever spent.

	06-12-2003 01:49									#86
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Yeah, I think I've beaten this dead horse enough

Yup, moving on to the children

"Don't hit me any more mommy"

	06-12-2003 01:50									#87
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ming But then again, I'm sure it's hard for you to understand since you aren't a parent and you have no clue what you are talking about

Oh, that's being a bit harsh. He does have to watch his younger brothers every now and then. That's almost like being a parent.

	06-12-2003 01:51									#88
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yeah... right...

	06-12-2003 02:38									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Japher Yup, moving on to the children "Don't hit me any more mommy"

You ass, I almost suffocated.

	06-12-2003 02:42									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

When I was little and had to go somewhere with my mom I use to say that to try and catch people off gaurd.