05-12-2003 00:33									#1
	AU mod: Longevity Tired of ads?

The problem

A Wonder of the World should provide the builder with a noticeable advantage. Longevity does not have that effect in the game because it comes at a time when most cities have already reached their maximum size, so they do not benefit from double population growth. In fact, a city near its maximum size not only doesn’t benefit from Longevity, but it often enters starvation if the 2-population point jump is more than it can support. Starvation can hurt productivity, if the city was in a WLTKD celebration.

But even in the rare case when an empire is not fully developed and can make good use of Longevity, Genetics come near the end of the game where the population boost will come too late to make a difference in production. Better to spend those 1000 shields to complete 3-4 spaceship parts or to build some extra Modern Armor units.

Possible Solution

Move Longevity to Sanitation. Reduce its cost to 800 shields, which is more appropriate for an Industrial Age Wonder.

This change worked well in the PTW version of the AU mod. Longevity becomes a worthwhile Wonder which can be built as soon as hospitals are available to support the extra growth. Players now have a good Wonder alternative to the Theory of Evolution in the Industrial Age. As a side effect, the AI values Sanitation more, which is good since it needs the hospitals to make use of its loose build pattern.

What do you think of Longevity?

	05-12-2003 00:39									#2
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This sounds like a good solution to me and seemed to work well when I played the PTW AU Mod. Just out of curiousity, were there any other alternatives that were suggested to improve Longetivity prior to its move to sanitation?

	05-12-2003 01:17									#3
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I can honestly say in the few games where Genetics even came into play, I built Longevity only if I was cruising along as the top dog in the world with plenty of productivity to spare. It is definately a Wonder that needs to be made "great." Moving it to sanitation is a good solution, as the benefit it provides at that point in the game would actually make it a consideration.

	05-12-2003 01:34									#4
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While I'd agree with this change, with the earlier versions of the AU mod, I would almost always built Longevity.

Recently, I was playing an OCC game with conquests and I noticed that the AI researched all the optional techs except sanitation by the mid-industrial age and I was in the modern age before they did. After Nationalism, Sanitation is the only optional tech that gives a real advantage to the AI.

Giving Longevity at sanitation would give a human player a reason to research it first as well as getting the AI to want it. This should help.

	05-12-2003 03:25									#5
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This is one of the few times where I like changes. It makes so much sense, you wonder why it was not adopted in some form for C3C.

	05-12-2003 04:05									#6
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Agreed. In the past, I would never even consider Longevity. Now, it's a good competitor to ToE.

	05-12-2003 04:50									#7
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It sounds like a decent change, but I think Longevity's real problem is that it's basically the Pyramids thousands of years later, with a side effect of 'over pop limit' starvations, and costing much more.

If you bring it to Sanitation, that certainly helps it's value, but how about adding a JS Bach's type happiness to it as well? I would make the same suggestion for Suffrage.

	05-12-2003 05:21									#8
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I think moving it to sanitation woud be a good boost for this wonder and adding happiness faces is a great idea. (and needed after all the hospitals are built) Adding happiness faces to Suffarage is not needed as it already reduces war weariness (thus increasing happiness for republican governments).

To me TOE would still be the priority (I'm a tech hog ) but it would give me a viable reason to research sanitation rather than just buying it from the AI while I research another tech (most likely Steel or Combustion) to further my lead.

	05-12-2003 05:26									#9
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I liked moving it to Sanitation in PtW AU, and support the same approach in the new AU.

	05-12-2003 05:56									#10
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Sounds like a great idea. And I like how the AI will give sanitation, and thus hospitals greater priority, I've found them to be lacking in that area.

	05-12-2003 06:01									#11
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My thoughts on Suffrage are biased by playstyle no doubt. I never actually experience war weariness in a Republic, and almost never change to a Democracy.

	05-12-2003 06:20									#12
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I could see adding a happiness modifier to Longevity. I mean, you'd think people would be happier they are living longer It could be a very small increase, but just enough to make it a little more attractive for building.

	05-12-2003 06:31									#13
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I like the canges proposed in the initial post: faster growth is even more important in c3c due to its better specialists (especially the policemen).

	05-12-2003 06:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I could see adding a happiness modifier to Longevity. I mean, you'd think people would be happier they are living longer It could be a very small increase, but just enough to make it a little more attractive for building.

Us old farts aren't necessarily happier for being crotchety old farts. Well, I'm not that old, but I'm certainly doing well on the crotchety front.

	05-12-2003 06:57									#15
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I'm not a fan of adding happy faces to Longevity. It seems to flagrantly violate the conservative approach of AU, and it doesn't automatically follow that old age equals happy people.

In the PtW AU the movement of the wonder to Sanitation seemed to do the trick just fine.

	05-12-2003 07:57									#16
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I could see adding a happiness modifier to Longevity. I mean, you'd think people would be happier they are living longer It could be a very small increase, but just enough to make it a little more attractive for building.

I see your point, but I also see lots of older people and they are not all that happy. Many are quite cranky.

	05-12-2003 09:36									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I see your point, but I also see lots of older people and they are not all that happy. Many are quite cranky.

especially if they are out in the fields and mines all day.

	05-12-2003 21:43									#18
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Moving Longevity could possibly add some challenge to close games, but it can also produce a major "the rich get richer" effect when the human player is already ahead. ToE and Hoover are already high-powered wonders readily available to a player with a tech lead. When a player can get Longevity in additon to those two, as is often possible with a good tech lead, the player's advantage is that much greater.

The issue, as I see it, is not, "Is the power of Longevity out of line with that of other industrial wonders?" Rather, it is, "Is the power of longevity more likely to be a counterbalance against a player's running away with the game, or more likely to help the player run away with the game?" Adding wonders with similar power to existing wonders only helps provide balance when the same civ doesn't end up with all of them. And for practical purposes, making Longevity useful instead of essentially useless does amount to adding a wonder to the game.

Nathan

	05-12-2003 21:53									#19
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But if you are so far ahead that you can get both the ToE and Longevity, then it's not Longevity that will have won you the game. The game was already won in that case.

	05-12-2003 22:37									#20
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That is what I was going to say. How often do you get Hoover and not get Longevity? You will have several large metros that can build a wonder faster than the AI. You could get a prebuild and only fear them getting a leader (now sgl).
Most of the time, you do not even bother with prebuilds for it as the AI is likely fighting you and is not going to have any leaders that survive and is not going to out build you for any more wonders.
If it was moved up, it could put more pressure on you to get it.

	06-12-2003 00:48									#21
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I just realized why the AI isn't grabbing Sanitation in my games anymore when I skip it in the tech tree (which I usually do in my rush to grab ToE/Hoover).... playing with the mod, Longevity was there, so the AI would always research Sanitation before I did. Without the mod (and thus no GW), both the AI and I usually skip it until late in the Industrial Age.

I guess this is a long way of saying I support the change proposed by alexman in post number one.

	06-12-2003 10:20									#22
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quote: Originally posted by alexman But if you are so far ahead that you can get both the ToE and Longevity, then it's not Longevity that will have won you the game. The game was already won in that case.

That's not necessarily true. AIs don't use prebuilds (unless Conquests changed something) and they aren't as good as human players at setting up mega-production centers to build their wonders in. So unless there's a threat of a ToE/Longevity cascade, trading for Sanitation offers a real prospect of winning the race to Longevity. Once it is recognized that an AI has Sanitation, a prebuild can even buy some time before trading for Sanitation. (And of course ToE makes Hoover all but inevitable.)

Obviously, a player would have to be in the tech race to pull that off. But with enough skill and a little luck, I suspect that the odds of pulling off a sweep from a position of rough tech parity are pretty good, at least if a wonder cascade doesn't mess things up.

Nathan

	06-12-2003 16:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay for practical purposes, making Longevity useful instead of essentially useless does amount to adding a wonder to the game.

Above all, it amounts to offering the human player more strategic choice without creating major imbalances. Doesn't this fit exactly the philosophy of the AU mod?

quote: (And of course ToE makes Hoover all but inevitable.)

IMO, this is a problem that needs to be adressed, but has nothing to do with Longevity's position in the tech tree.

	06-12-2003 17:10									#24
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It's the "without creating major imbalances" that I question. If the human player can get it without giving up ToE/Hoover, I think it does create a significant balance issue. In my view, the harm to balance in that situation dramatically outweighs any balance advantages when an AI ends up with it or (conceivably) ends up with ToE as a result.

Nathan

	06-12-2003 23:13									#25
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I don't have an opinion as to whether the change strengthens or weakens the game -- if pressed, I'd say it might strengthen the human against the AI but also makes the game a bit more fun in the "UP" effect. Though I didn't play the AU Mod regularly, I don't think the move of Longevity to Sanitation ever cost me Longevity to an AI or endangered ToE. So long as one is reasonably close to the leaders (not even requiring parity), the human pre-build ability combined with building more shield-productive cities seems to me to allow building both wonders without too much difficulty. I can envision a game where the tech disparity might be just enough to force a decision to forgo or substantially risk one of the two wonders.

Catt

	07-12-2003 00:18									#26
	Change name to Mass Immunization or Smallpox Vaccine? Remove this text

Well the Subject says it all. It just seems that if the wonder is getting pushed back to sanitation it should be given and era appropriate name, such as Mass Immunization or Smallpox Vaccine.

	08-12-2003 07:08									#27
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I am not sure... I have never made it this far in a game without winning before, so I have not seen Longevity's effects firsthand.

Why would we want to change this? Does it really help the AI? I see this wonder much like the Cure of Cancer in Civ2 - so late in the day that it basically does nothing but add a Wonder to the modern era.

Would there be anything wrong with leaving it?

	08-12-2003 07:23									#28
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One of the goals of the mod is to strengthen weak elements of the game (and vice versa) so the player has fewer 'no-brainer' decisions.

Stregthening the AI is just another way to reduce the player's 'no-brainers', it's not the only goal of the mod.

	08-12-2003 19:41									#29
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My ToE-->Hoover idea ended up incorporating Longevity....

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...335#post2541335

Two birds with one stone, so to speak.

	11-12-2003 09:31									#30
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Now that we have a panel, we can start making decisions:

AU mod panel members, you have 24 hours to vote:

• "Yes" to move Longevity to Sanitation.
  
• "No" to make no change.