05-12-2003 02:54									#31
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Q,
If the world beats the USA on technology more power to them, our own fault, but paying children 50 cents a day or something like that and putting workers out here, that is my problem and I think that is most of the problem. We will get out techno'd for a while but not for long and that is a fair fight but not the latter I mentioned, that's bullsh!t.

	05-12-2003 03:06									#32
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i'll grant you that paying 50 cents to kids is bad and it is bullshit.

on the other hand, that's how all industrialized societies bootstrapped themselves into this position. sweatshops, alas, are an unfortunate consequence of industrialization as jobs appear in cities, with a glut of workers coming in from the rural areas.

	05-12-2003 03:18									#33
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Well.. what do you know.. EU blackmail actually works...

	05-12-2003 03:27									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant At least Dell is bringing some work back home from India.

Dont be mistaken, the reason why Dell made this decision was not to please US workers, but because the customers were not satisfied with the quality of the service rendered by the Indian phone center.

	05-12-2003 03:34									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i'll grant you that paying 50 cents to kids is bad and it is bullshit. on the other hand, that's how all industrialized societies bootstrapped themselves into this position. sweatshops, alas, are an unfortunate consequence of industrialization as jobs appear in cities, with a glut of workers coming in from the rural areas.

About 80 years ago, at 12, my mother entered the work market, and she was likely paid in the same range. The countries doing that now will probably need less time to increase the salaries to decent levels.

It is not reasonnable to forbid that kind of work without offering to the families concerned an equivalent income, because they need it.

	05-12-2003 03:43									#36
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Well.. what do you know.. EU blackmail actually works...

Sure, but EU had previously killed considerable over capacities, specialized in hight quality steels, and restructured the whole european industry. All that had a hight cost in term of job.

Arcelor is the result of the merging of three companies (Spanish, French and Luxembourgian) and is presumably a world leader.

Low quality steels can now be made by less advanced countries and imported without destroying jobs.

	05-12-2003 03:47									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Sure, but EU had previously killed considerable over capacities, specialized in hight quality steels, and restructured the whole european industry. All that had a hight cost in term of job.

Never said anything different. Besides that was reflected in the WTO ruling anyway. It was a given. Let's face it Bush thought he could play superpower but got his arse vandalized. Just another case of EU getting its way through the WTO.
(for which, coincidently, I nucture no sympathy let me tell you generally).

BTW it would be interesting to see how this plays with the american electorate.

	05-12-2003 03:56									#38
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I wonder if Defiant is representative of the american electorate ?

	05-12-2003 04:04									#39
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quote: I did this morning.

I promptly bumped my thread after I saw your post, Japher.

	05-12-2003 04:17									#40
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lippy? LIPPY?

	05-12-2003 06:15									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Why should Bush get credit for "doing something good," when he was the one who imposed the stupid tariff in the first place? YAY! BUSH RECTIFIED HIS OWN BONEHEADED MISTAKE TO AVERT AN OBVIOUS ECONOMIC DISASTER OF A TRADE WAR! SUCH GENIUS!!!

Dittos.

	05-12-2003 08:23									#43
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Just going to refute a couple of random points...

quote: Originally posted by Defiant It is not just the steel workers, all imports, look at the back of the items you buy in the next week, I doubt you will see anything from Europe or Japan

Last I heard, Japan has a huge trade surplus with the US. Now where could all that come from?

quote: Originally posted by Defiant try Asia, Phillipines and Mexico

Last I heard, Japan is in Asia

quote: Originally posted by Defiant You want to know why this country is losing jobs, you can try and blame Bush but you're an idiot if you do

Strawman.

	05-12-2003 08:27									#44
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quote: You want to know why this country is losing jobs, you can try and blame Bush but you're an idiot if you do

yes, because Bush has excellent economic policies that create an environment friendly to the American worker...



Say that outloud... it's so stupid it sounds funny!

	05-12-2003 09:12									#45
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The reason that the US is running such a big trade deficit is not due to foreign competition, but due to the death of savings in the US.

When you look at the current account balance it has a counterpart, the capital account balance.
If a country runs a current account deficit (more imports than exports) then it must run a capital account surplus (more capital coming in from overseas than going out) of equal size.
The gap between imports and exports is the same as the gap between what a nation saves and what it invests.

The US's trade balance went into deficit not because of a fall in exports (which is what you would expect if foreign markets become more protected) but due to a surge in imports.
Similarly the rise in the capital account surplus is due to a collapse in saving not a rise in investment (indeed investment is still below it's peak in 2000).

The way to set things right is for:
i) American consumers to stop borrowing and repair their balance sheets
ii) The US government to improve it's budget deficit

	05-12-2003 09:14									#46
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You gotta give credit where credit is due. Bush scores one for showing up in Iraq on Thanksgiving and one for ending tariffs

	05-12-2003 09:40									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler You gotta give credit where credit is due. Bush scores one for showing up in Iraq on Thanksgiving and one for ending tariffs

Zkribbler...how should Bush get points for ending dumb tariffs that he imposed in the first place?

This isn't a positive political mark for Bush--it will hurt him with steel workers, and it makes him look weak for blinking under threats from the EU and Asia.

	05-12-2003 10:43									#48
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Has Bush lost Teamster's support by now? is this the end of the union bloc voting conservative?

	05-12-2003 10:46									#49
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I doubt there are many steel workers left in the US, and I doubt that they would vote for Bush regardless.

	05-12-2003 13:00									#50
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Maybe they would all move to Florida and vote against GWB.

	05-12-2003 16:57									#51
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quote: You gotta give credit where credit is due. Bush scores one ... for ending tariffs

and he loses one for creating them in the first place.

	06-12-2003 04:25									#52
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Yeah, the steelworkers union has decried Bush's move and said that they would work hard to unseat him.

Thinking how beholden the Democrat party are to protectionist unions, it is amazing that Clinton was a free trader.

It is also amazing that Bush became a protectionist, because he is never going to get the union leadership to back him.

	06-12-2003 04:34									#53
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The term "Fair trade" was invented by leftist, to describe a deal where you pay more for the goods, to allow for higher salaries in 3rd world countries. Now Bush uses it for his own purposes and I don't get it. (I oppose both the leftists and Bush)

	06-12-2003 05:04									#54
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quote: Zkribbler...how should Bush get points for ending dumb tariffs that he imposed in the first place?

He's a smarter president now then before.

Gives you one less reason not to vote for Bush, and it gives him some nice ammunition over the protectionist Dems.

The only way the tariffs could have hurt him is if some of the Dems took him to task for not having free trade, but now they don't have that opportunity.

How many times do you hear people complaining about Bush not admitting he was wrong? Now he has.

	06-12-2003 05:12									#55
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Chem Ollie, if you oppose Bush because he imposed the tarriffs, you are not a good leftist.

	06-12-2003 05:45									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Chem Ollie, if you oppose Bush because he imposed the tarriffs, you are not a good leftist.

Duh, that's because I'm not. I'm conservative.

I was pro-Bush during his last campaign and all the way until he imposed the steel tariffs. Then I started to doubt - well is he a commie or something - opposing free trade and introducing government support to obsolete industry?

Then came 9/11, and his response made me turn my back against him totally. The goal of terrorism is to provoke the authorities to do stupid things in response, which will make the public hate the authorities, and stupid Bush fell right into the trap.

Sound effects from "Counter-Strike" computer game: BOOOOMMM....Terrorists win!

	06-12-2003 06:44									#57
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Well, we conservatives here in the US conniptions about the steel tarriffs as well.

I can also understand your view on 9/11 as conservatives here in the States have historically been isolationistic. However, all that changed beginning with the rise of George McGovern. The parties here in the US have switched with the Republicans being the party of Manifest Destiny.

	06-12-2003 08:45									#58
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You guys are crazy. Bush scored political points with steel workers for imposing the tariffs in the first place, showing that his support for the American steel industry goes beyond mere words. He always knew the WTO would find against the US in this case, but the act itself was great from a political standpoint, even if it was always doomed to failure.

Now that the inevitable failure of the tariffs has come about, Bush can spin his removal of the tariffs as a sign of his support for free-trade and respect for the WTO and other international trading organizations. The public memory is so short that most people will forget that Bush imposed the tariffs in the first place and will give him some sort of credit for this pro-free-trade move. Meanwhile, Bush can still score points with steel workers, claiming that he tried his best to help them out, but foreign opposition did the tariffs in. It's a win-win situation for Bush.

Say what you want about Bush and his team, but you must admit that Karl Rove is a political genius.

	06-12-2003 10:25									#59
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Chemical Ollie:

You sound like an interesting conservative, being against the war on terror, and for free trade.

Which aspects of Bush most appealed to you, when he first got elected?

	06-12-2003 11:46									#60
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Ben -- conservatives are diverse in of themselves, just as liberals are diverse in of themselves.

You can have two conservatives slugging it out with one another -- or two liberals slugging it out with one another.