05-12-2003 01:28									#1
	Finally - Bush did something good ! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

From BBC : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3291537.stm

quote: Bush ditches steel import duties Steelworkers wanted the tariffs to be kept President George W Bush has repealed US tariffs on imported steel to avoid a damaging trade war. The decision follows a World Trade Organisation decision that the duties, imposed in March 2002, are illegal. Mr Bush had justified them by saying foreign steel firms were driving US firms out of business with unfair competition and government subsidies. Without the widely-trailed repeal, the European Union would have imposed sanctions worth $2.2bn on 15 December. ---

A victory for free trade supporters

	05-12-2003 01:30									#3
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Already a couple of free trade threads.

You could have posted this in mine.

Good news nonetheless.

	05-12-2003 01:36									#4
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now, for instituting them in the first place.

(sorry, this thread seemed to be degenerating into just a series of )

	05-12-2003 01:38									#5
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Why should Bush get credit for "doing something good," when he was the one who imposed the stupid tariff in the first place?

YAY! BUSH RECTIFIED HIS OWN BONEHEADED MISTAKE TO AVERT AN OBVIOUS ECONOMIC DISASTER OF A TRADE WAR! SUCH GENIUS!!!

	05-12-2003 01:40									#6
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But at least he rectified it. Unlike Iraq, which is a mistake that will continue for years to come

	05-12-2003 01:58									#8
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Yea, now if we can get those dumb ass countries to actually start paying their workers for work, then maybe we would get a fair trade established.

At least Dell is bringing some work back home from India.

	05-12-2003 02:02									#9
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Or if we can get those dumbass multi-national American companies to pay their workers decently, right Defiant?

	05-12-2003 02:06									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Yea, now if we can get those dumb ass countries to actually start paying their workers for work, then maybe we would get a fair trade established.

Yes, Europe and Japan are notorious for having such low-wage steel workers with horrendous working conditions and crappy benefits.



Is what you're "defiant" of rational thought?

	05-12-2003 02:08									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Or if we can get those dumbass multi-national American companies to pay their workers decently, right Defiant?

It's not all American multi-nationals. Try being a line rat for a large Chinese or Korean company, for one.

	05-12-2003 02:12									#12
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Suddenly, Defiant is concerned of workers' rights.



he does have a point, though.

	05-12-2003 02:17									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Yes, Europe and Japan are notorious for having such low-wage steel workers with horrendous working conditions and crappy benefits. Is what you're "defiant" of rational thought?

It is not just the steel workers, all imports, look at the back of the items you buy in the next week, I doubt you will see anything from Europe or Japan, try Asia, Phillipines and Mexico, this steel tarriff is the beginning to where Bush wants to go with this. You want to know why this country is losing jobs, you can try and blame Bush but you're an idiot if you do, job loss started long before Bush, it is the pushing of US jobs across seas, because it can be done cheaper. The United States is in a horrific trade imbalance and it doesn't go well for us US workers.
A fairer system to all would be fair trade equilivent to differences in wages, that would go both ways.

Look, if the USA is on top of the economic pinnacle and we want world trade and somebody is at the bottom, it is a fair assessment that the top as to give in order for the bottom to gain, and I don't particuarly want to give up something just so China is better off. Now if you want to say that the US imposed a 30% trade on China because their wages are 30% of the US, all fair now in love, war and economics. I think America should protect her jobs.

	05-12-2003 02:23									#14
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tariffs kill business. this is why, until recently, no foreign automaker has been able to crack any of the east asian markets.

i've never seen a tariff i didn't despise.

	05-12-2003 02:24									#15
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quote: Try being a line rat for a large Chinese or Korean company, for one.

a lot of korean companies that are well known have been moving upstream. the big chaebol apparently pay well.

	05-12-2003 02:24									#16
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Az,
I am always worried about workers rights in America.
They pay my bills and if they are unable to pay because they don't work, that affects us all.

	05-12-2003 02:26									#17
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quote: Already a couple of free trade threads. You could have posted this in mine.

I did this morning.

	05-12-2003 02:26									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov YAY! BUSH RECTIFIED HIS OWN BONEHEADED MISTAKE TO AVERT AN OBVIOUS ECONOMIC DISASTER OF A TRADE WAR! SUCH GENIUS!!!

exactly...

Bush will have to gain 3 million jobs, provide peace in Iraq, and reverse his own tax cuts before he even gets into neutral territory... he's got a LOOONNNNGGGGG way to go before anything he does can be considered "good".

But still, as much as I rag on Bush about this free-trade mess, he isn't nearly as hypocritical as John Kerry this week. Kerry attacks the Patriot Act and the War in Iraq... two things he voted for.

	05-12-2003 02:27									#19
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There are some people that say that the original US tariffs on imported steel were successful in buying time for some of the companies. That while they would like them continued, they think they can compete better now than when they were first implemented. So maybe they weren't as dumb as some people claim.

	05-12-2003 02:28									#20
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Q,
Some can say a lack of tariffs can kill business, it is your idea of what kind of business. I saw in the news a while back that Japan tried to have lumber cut in Washington state and Oregon in the US, then have it shipped to Japan turned it into the final product, whether paper, lumber, whatever and they were going to do it cheaper than the US, I can't believe they have that much of a technological advantage in thata field on the US, it has to be labor intensive.

	05-12-2003 02:29									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant It is not just the steel workers, all imports, look at the back of the items you buy in the next week, I doubt you will see anything from Europe or Japan, try Asia, Phillipines and Mexico, this steel tarriff is the beginning to where Bush wants to go with this. You want to know why this country is losing jobs, you can try and blame Bush but you're an idiot if you do, job loss started long before Bush, it is the pushing of US jobs across seas, because it can be done cheaper. The United States is in a horrific trade imbalance and it doesn't go well for us US workers. A fairer system to all would be fair trade equilivent to differences in wages, that would go both ways. Look, if the USA is on top of the economic pinnacle and we want world trade and somebody is at the bottom, it is a fair assessment that the top as to give in order for the bottom to gain, and I don't particuarly want to give up something just so China is better off. Now if you want to say that the US imposed a 30% trade on China because their wages are 30% of the US, all fair now in love, war and economics. I think America should protect her jobs.

This rant is a non-sequitur. If you think Bush was concerned with human rights and wages, you're defiantly delusional. Bush was pulling a cheap stunt to woo blue-collar voters in industrial states. If he was concerned with wages and rights, why include Europe and Japan, which have arguably better conditions for workers?

It backfired, largely because Bush's corporate cronies got steamed at their increased costs, so now he has to wipe the egg off his face and deal with the steel workers. How he could reconcile these tariffs with his election stances on free trade, I don't know.

Protecting steel worker jobs is an impossible, losing scenario and will only lead to economic problems for both the U.S. and other countries. The rising costs to corporations won't be tolerated either.

	05-12-2003 02:30									#22
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CO:

Although this was nickle and dime stuff in the first place.

	05-12-2003 02:33									#23
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no way rah... these tariffs were retarded. If the American steel industry is too inept to adapt and compete, it should deserve to fail. And in addition, it's terribly hypocritical of Bush to be imposing these tariffs when he's constantly championing for a free-trade zone.

Having said that... if America's steel industries are suffering because of the exploitation of cheap labor, then I wouldn't have such an objection to such tariffs. The tariffs then, would be a product of the flawed aspects of free-trade agreements not containing standards for labor wages, unionization, and slave/child labor. But, as Boris pointed out, the tariffs were aimed at European countries and Japan... countries that have high labor standards.

Plus, look at the motives of Bush. He was pandering to two states he lost in the 2000 election: Michigan and Pennsylvania. As with just about everything, Bush's actions were entirely self-serving.

	05-12-2003 02:36									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov to woo blue-collar voters in industrial states. If he was concerned with wages and rights,

WOW, stop the presses, a politician doing something to woo votes. Let me know when you find a politician that doesn't do that.

	05-12-2003 02:37									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Q, Some can say a lack of tariffs can kill business, it is your idea of what kind of business. I saw in the news a while back that Japan tried to have lumber cut in Washington state and Oregon in the US, then have it shipped to Japan turned it into the final product, whether paper, lumber, whatever and they were going to do it cheaper than the US, I can't believe they have that much of a technological advantage in thata field on the US, it has to be labor intensive.

The Japanese factory production systems are very efficient. Just believe it. The working culture in Japan is different from USA, that affects too. Instead of lay-offs, they allways re-train the old employees (which causes huge saves in severance pays and lawsuits).

	05-12-2003 02:38									#26
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quote: Q, Some can say a lack of tariffs can kill business, it is your idea of what kind of business.

the lack of tariffs, yes, will kill business. the business that die will die because they were unable to adapt and compete, and therefore it's their own damn fault.

quote: I saw in the news a while back that Japan tried to have lumber cut in Washington state and Oregon in the US, then have it shipped to Japan turned it into the final product, whether paper, lumber, whatever and they were going to do it cheaper than the US, I can't believe they have that much of a technological advantage in thata field on the US, it has to be labor intensive.

perhaps they were going to use the burakumin. they need work anyhow. if they weren't dumping, and they can do it cheaper, why not let them?

	05-12-2003 02:40									#27
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I'll grant both Sava and Boris, it was partial to try and grab election votes, but c'mon you guys if you don't think he doesn't see the massive job loss in America he would have to be as blind as Sava is lippy . Steel is high profile and it got the attention and the word out he is looking into this "imbalance". But it has to go further and the gov't isn't just to blame so are the companies that employ foreign worker just to increase their margin. In the end most goods are purchased here with American dollars, sooner or later they are going to realize they were only pissing in their own well but trying to get it cheaper for a flipping percentage point.
If products cost as much to get into this country as to produce them here why wouldn't you produce them here?

	05-12-2003 02:41									#28
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quote: Originally posted by rah WOW, stop the presses, a politician doing something to woo votes. Let me know when you find a politician that doesn't do that.

Not news to me, but apparently it's news to Defiant, who seems to think Bush acted out of concern for workers. He's only concerned with the electoral votes in their states.

	05-12-2003 02:43									#29
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Q,
Because they are taking jobs from America that buy my products that help me survive.

	05-12-2003 02:51									#30
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free trade is ruthless.

i have to deal with it too. not too pleasurable, but the fewer restrictions, the better. there is no cause to slap tariffs on something unless they are dumping, which is not what the foreign steel companies were doing.

if there is a glut in the steel supply, prices will fall. if american companies cannot deal with falling prices, then it is tragic, but they should not receive tariffs.

otoh, a native steel company is a requirement for a strong national defense. i have less problem with bailouts than i do with tariffs.